Real-world appdb

[Holly Bostick]

If I may interrupt and split off the various theoretical discussions
about recoding the appdb, I'd like to report my experiences actually
using the appdb as it is today. I wanted to use the appdb in order to
(attempt to) solve some installation problems with several applications
(two games, two applications).

My impressions as a user predisposed to feeling that the appdb is an
extremely useful capability, currently (severely) underutilized, were as
follows:

I started with the last program I had tried to install, the expansion 
pack for Icewind Dale, called "Heart of Winter". It's been some time 
since I've even accessed the appdb, much less tried to use it to solve a 
problem with a listed program, so I had a fairly fresh eye for how it 
looks, how accessible the information I needed was, and how noticeable 
useful information that I didn't know I needed was (or was not).

I had forgotten the precise URL directly to the appdb, so I had to
start from the main site, which brings me to my first useability
complaint: too long a trail to get to the app I'm looking for.

I had to go through 4 links just to get to the main application page.
First, the sidebar link from the main site to the appdb front page. This 
front page is useless to me (and imo, fairly useless overall), since the
majority of the "Gold" and "Silver' apps so prominently listed I already
do/would use the native alternatives for in the case of winzip, p7zip, 
Paint (Paint??! it's barely useful under Windows!), SimCity, IE, Excel, 
ACDSee, Money, Frontpage/Dreamweaver, and Ant Movie Catalog. Others I do 
not use at all, either because I have no use for them, in the case of 
Powerpoint, Access and Visio, or because they are "special interest 
programs" as in the case of Warcraft and Age of Empires (I play games, 
but not those).

Having a lovely page with big 'ol screenshots is very nice and all, but
given that the chance of a random individual user coming to use the
appdb actually needs to know about those particular programs (as opposed
to one or more of the thousands of others they may be attempting to run)
is relatively small, I would think that the "Top 25" links would be more
useful there (and less space-consuming, since I have to scroll the
current page to see if there might be a useful link at the bottom of
it), along with another, more prominent "Browse Categories" link than
this page as it stands.

So, after following the first link to a page I cannot use, I must then
link to "Browse apps" to get a category listing (Games), and then to the
sub-category page (if present, which in this case it was; Role-Playing),
and then to the application itself to see the results for Icewind Dale (
http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?appId=141 ). I am now quite tired,
having trudged through all these links when I was already tired; after
all, the only reason I'm at the appdb at all is because I have tried to
install an application and failed, which is stressful-- especially since 
I, like many users, have retried the process several times before 
looking to the appdb for help. And yes, I could have used the search 
box, but that would be *typing* :-) when I was mousing. Yes, it's my 
worst leftover habit from my years of Windows use; I tend to mouse and 
not type. But I'm far from alone in this, so it's a fair comment.

My first impressions on arrival (since I was looking at the page with 
"fresh eyes"):

1.1) The current design of the individual application page is readable 
and easy on the eyes.

1.2) The "Description" area is well-placed and sized, but the 
information contained therein is generally pointless and should be a 
"Summary" instead. Most of the descriptions I read told me what the 
application is and does as if I was making a buying decision. However, I 
believe that in most cases (certainly my case), users are already 
familiar with the capabilities of the program itself (since they already 
have it), thus telling users what a program they already have actually 
does is a waste of space.

What I would have found more useful on what is essentially the
"overview" page is some indication as to whether the problems with the 
application that I am consulting the app database about are known, and 
whether they are solveable (so I'd know whether to continue with the 
appdb or if I need to immediately begin searching elsewhere for 
solutions). A nice bulletted list (or a couple of them) would do just 
fine: "Installs: Yes, no, with modification (the last being a link to 
the comment explaining the needed modifications); "Runs: Yes, no, with 
modifications (as above); "Known Problems: Bulleted list (with links), 
none".

If such a summary was provided on the main application page, I would not
mind so much having to go to yet another page (fifth link, now) in order
to find specific details on possible issues with the particular 
*version* of the program I'm trying to install/run.

1.3) The screenshot on the application overview page is some reward,
however; at least I have proof that the application can be made to work,
even if I cannot get it to, and its placement is eye-catching so that I
am sure to be a bit heartened by seeing it.

1.4) The big "Become a super maintainer" link/button is nice, and
encourages me to become one (via guilt; because I'm attempting to look
up programs I very commonly install under Wine whenever I install a new
distribution, I feel I might be familiar enough with the issues 
surrounding them  that I should contribute something back) but I do not 
become a maintainer because:

1.4a) I couldn't log in via that login button anyway; I had to use the 
side menu link and then go back to the page I was on. Fortunately the 
"send a new password" link on the login page that the "Log in to become 
a maintainer" button takes you to didn't seem to work either, so I was 
able to look up my original password in a password maintenance progam
(PCMagazine's 6-year-old Password Prompter) that I run via Wine (which
is why I hadn't so much bothered to stop what I was doing and look it up
in the first place) and use my real login in the side menu link instead;

1.4b) more importantly, I do not know what the responsibilities of a
"maintainer" are-- much less a "super maintainer". There is no link on
that page as to what this means (not even a little question mark with a
tooltip popup), and no indication as to whether actually clicking the
button will go to an "intermediate" page which explains what it is, or
just sets your login as the maintainer for this app (since I have 
specifically had to log in in order to enable this button in the first 
place, it's not an unreasonable assumption that that might occur).

Since I didn't know what would happen, and didn't know if I wanted to or
was capable of fulfilling what might be a committment (how much do I
need to know about the program? How much do I need to know about
programming? Do I need to have a version of Windows available to know
how the program runs there, so I can compare it to how it runs under
Wine?), I did not click the button, so the apps will remain unmaintained 
for the time being (or they won't be maintained by me, anyway).

Weirdly enough, going to the version page for the application offers me
the opportunity to be a "regular" maintainer-- so, what, that means I
would be a maintainer for that specific version, whereas "super 
maintainer" means that I'd be maintainer for all versions, like some 
kind of 'team leader'? I'm not sure that either makes sense to me as a 
user, nor that it is a logical setup generally, at least for games, 
which usually should not be run at lower versions if a patch (which 
increases the version while repairing errors) is available. So there is 
in some ways no reason to maintain version "1.0" when no one should 
actually be *running* version 1.0 other than immediately after install, 
and then only for the 5 seconds before the user has installed one or 
more patches (after which they will be running a higher version). There 
are certainly some games that would require that several patch 
levels/versions be maintained; I know of at least one (Settlers 3) that 
only works (for my boyfriend under Windows 2000) with a lower patch than 
the "latest" patch, and SiN (a game which I run under Wine despite a 
native version being available, because I already have two copies of the 
Windows version) is also very touchy about patches, so it certainly can 
happen that multiple patch levels of a game might need to be separately 
maintained. I would think that the game's maintainer would know if 
his/her particular charge needed special circumstances though, and since 
this is not a common situation (you usually want all users to be running 
the latest patch, and this is usually a good idea), having it as a 
general organizational strategy, at least in the games category, seems 
to be unnecessary work.

1.5) Comments are not being counted properly on the main overview page;
Icewind Dale actually has two comments on the version page (version 1.0,
which again is not the "real" version as there are two expansion packs,
both of which contain patches that increase the version number, and
these patches are also available separately, so no one should be using
"vanilla" 1.0), but the main page says that the number of comments are 0.

1.6) I hope that one of the responsibilities of the maintainer or super
maintainer is to control comments in some way. I completely understand
that users of the appdb who are having problems with any given app *have
no other place to state their issue with the specific program in an
organized and somewhat reliably maintained fashion* (as wine has no
forums, and certainly no forums linked to the specific app). However,
comments like

"hmm... when exporting registry, the reg file is all messed up. It has
weird symbols in it. Any idea what I'm doing wrong?"

have no place in the appdb. On the other hand, if I was the maintainer,
I would want to know that a user of the app that I maintained was
evidencing this problem (assuming that the issue commented on is
specific to the app, which in this case it probably is not), and help
the user solve it so that I could update the procedure to install and
run the app.

I'd really like to see forums or at least some kind of PM system so that
the users of the applications could reliably communicate with the
maintainer for the benefit of both parties. I see that Planescape:
Torment (another game I have running under Wine, without issue;
http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?versionId=437 ) has a maintainer,
but his name is not a mailto: link, so I can't contact him (afaik) to 
advise him of any new information I may have discovered short of posting 
a comment myself... which is fine if it's new information (assuming that 
my comment fits into the organizational structure of the db so that 
following users can find it easily), but if it's an app-specific issue 
that I want his help with, it's a waste of space (insofar as such a 
comment provides no real information to other users searching the 
database except a confirmation of the issue), and the appdb as it is 
gives no assurance that the maintainer will see the comment anyway.

Comments should also require the specification of the Wine version, the
distribution under which it is used, and the type of install
(self-compiled from source, distribution repository package, or Wine
distribution package; I have visions of a radio button) to be attached
to the comment, as new users often don't know to include this
information, but it's pretty hard to answer many questions without
having this information (so one has to ask, which wastes time and space).

A Wine FAQ at the forefront of the appdb, or even linked to each
application's overview page might be nice, too, for more general issues
like the above comment-- an explanation of basic procedures such as
exporting/importing registry entries, what common errors mean, like the
"Warning: The specified Windows directory L"C:\\Windows" is not
accessible" error and what to do about it, why not to get all freaked
out by seeing "fixme"s, and simple statements like the fact that some 
programs will run fine with wine /path/to/app.exe, but some will fail 
that way with very scary looking errors, but will run fine if one first 
cds to /path/to/ and then runs wine app.exe. This kind of thing is often
something new Wine users don't know, but is a very simple way to
eliminate possible vectors of error before going to any mailing list or
forum with problems, and may eliminate the need for a user to ask for
help at all (as the program works when started in the alternate manner).

Somebody's going to say I should write a FAQ myself and submit it as a
patch, aren't they? Yes, OK, but let me finish this mail first ;-) .

1.7) Descriptions are really not very useful, for several reasons. Still 
focusing on Icewind Dale (since that's the page I have open in the
appdb atm), here's the Description for the version page:

"Description
CD Release. Runs from a modified Baulders Gate engine. Notes from that
game would help here as well."

But there's no link to said notes, nor are the relevant notes copied
from that page and posted as an addendum, so even though this particular 
description does contain some useful information (for once), it's not 
even a lead, but only a suggestion of a lead. Big help.

1.8) (or, "On the road again") Off to the Baldur's Gate page, then... 
Back button to the subcategory (Games=>Role-Playing; thank heavens 
they're the same type), follow a new link to the Baldur's Gate page... 
I'm ranging far afield now, but in this case, that's OK. I have BG as 
well, but haven't installed it yet, so it's useful for me to look at the 
page anyway. Luckily. Because if I didn't have BG, I would now be 
traveling to the page of a completely different application in which I 
had no interest, with no assurance that what I find there will be of any 
use to me. In that case, I'd probaly be pretty bloody pissed off by now, 
given that I would have spent a fair amount of time trailing around the 
appdb without being so much as a single step closer to solving my actual 
problem with the original application, or even having it confirmed as a 
known problem, or receiving a clue that implied "user error", or 
anything whatsoever that would give me a troubleshooting or solution 
trail. http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?appId=157 if you'd like to 
come with me.

1.9) (or, "Helpful help?") Well, there are helpful notes there on the BG 
page, or rather, actual solutions to potential problems that I might 
have were I installing BG, which I remind you that I am not. Mind you, 
I, a simple user, don't know if the solutions posted for Baldur's Gate 
are problems that also exist under Icewind Dale -- well, actually, I 
personally do know, because I have run IWD and IWD2 under Wine in the 
past, and am currently running Planescape: Torment, (which btw runs 
great under 20050111 without any modification to Wine dlls, one 
appdb-documented change to the game's configuration file, and one small, 
optional [AppDefault] in Wine's config). All 5 of these games (IWD, 
IWD2, BG, BG2, and Planescape) are made by Black Isle, use more or less 
the same engine, and evidence similar problems to each other. But this 
does not mean that "your average user" would have any experience with 
multiple Black Isle games and thus know their technical similarities and 
differences.

The solutions on the Baldur's Gate page are general enough to be worth 
trying if IWD did not run at all, or ran poorly. However, this is not my 
problem; IWD installs perfectly and seems to run quite well (except for 
one minor but annoying issue related to Managed or Desktop settings that 
I haven't yet idenitified how to fix, since the way I fixed the same 
issue for Planescape doesn't seem to work here). Thus, none of the 
listed issues for Baldur's Gate is related to my actual problem with 
Icewind Dale, the specific application I have trailed all over the appdb 
trying to fix-- and the foremost reason is that my problem is not with 
IWD itself, but with installing the the expansion pack, "Heart of 
Winter", and

1.10) *this application is not listed in the appdb*, either as a version 
of IWD (since installing the expansion does require IWD, and does patch 
the original to a higher version), or as a separate program.

Also not listed are the Baldur's Gate expansion, "Tales of the Sword
Coast", and the Baldur's Gate 2 expansion "Throne of Bhaal", so I hope I
have no trouble installing those expansion packs when I get around to
it. However, given that I am already unable to install the expansion
pack for IWD, and since I know that IWD and Baldur's Gate are strongly
related, I'm expecting the worst-- and since the appdb is unable to help
me with IWD: Heart of Winter (nothing said about the official, free,
downloadable final expansion, Trials of the Luremaster, which is also
not in the database), if I hit trouble, I already know where I *won't*
find any help.

Fine, I'm stopped cold with this issue, let's stop quickly by the
Icewind Dale 2 page ( http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?appId=1033 )
and see if there's help for me there; the issue being that it won't
begin the install. InstallShield fails to extract/open with a regular
Windows-type dialog saying either that some dll in the /tmp/{long
CLSID-looking-string-of-numbers} folder can't be opened, or that
IKernel.exe can't be run. Actually the same issue I'm having when trying 
to install IWD:HoW, which doesn't surprise me very much, as I would 
guess that the Installshield for IWD:HoW and IWD2 are more closely 
related to each other than the one for the original IWD. Since the 
issues seem similar, maybe there's a fix for both apps on the IWD2 page.

2.1) Only one version (the original version, although there is a 2.01
patch), but whatever; according to the description, I am supposed to be
able to install this, as long as I have an insanely old version of Wine
(the original description was penned by someone installing under
20020904!), which I don't.

2.2) Two comments listed on the overview page, only one comment in 
actuality.

2.3) I'll try the workaround listed in the description, but since the
version of Wine used is so distant from what I actually have, and the
error which the workaround is fixing may or may not be the same one I'm
having (it's impossible to tell), and furthermore may not even be needed
anymore given the improvements in Wine in the meantime, I don't have 
much hope that it will work. But it's the only lead I have, as far as 
the appdb is concerned. Given that my second-best source of 
information--Transgaming's games database and forums-- has been blown 
away and replaced with a new games database (for which little or no data 
for most individual games has yet been entered), I don't have many other 
options than the appdb, since sites like Frank's Corner only cover a 
very limited selection of apps/games, and the various IWD sites on the 
Web don't cover Linux).

If the workaround doesn't work, I will probably dig up my backup of my
last installed and updated Win98-- which I cleverly saved all the
system files from before blowing it away, for just such an eventuality--
and "taint" my Wine installation by copying over the "real"
InstallShield files to the fake windows Common Files. This will probably
work-- it has in the past-- but I was really hoping to run 'pure' Wine
this time around. It has so been improving by leaps and bounds lately.


Let's see if things are any better in the Applications section. My issue
here is that I need to burn some CloneCD images. K3b claims they are
unuseable, and ccd2iso did not create recognizeable isos from them. It
remains unclear whether this is because the images themselves are no
good, or because there is a problem with ccd2iso, which several users
claimed was the case on the project site's bug tracker (
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=94638&atid=608541 ). So I want
to install either CloneCD (preferred), or Nero (version 6 or above,
which I *think* will also recognize the images, I have version 5.* as
well, but I don't *think* it will solve my problem to install it, as I'm
not sure when Nero's recognition of *.ccd images became reliable, but I
believe it was with version 6, if in fact it is reliable at all), to see
if the error is in the images themselves, or burn them if the problem is
with K3b.

I do not have any real interest in installing these programs on their
own account, although if I kept one, I would keep CloneCD for the
specific use of handling .ccd images, on the rare occasion that I need
to deal with them. I would prefer not to install Nero at all, and
certainly not to keep it, as it's too much overhead for the only use I
have for it (for my normal requirements, K3b is perfectly adequate). The
only reason Nero is under consideration at all is that I may not be able
to install or use CloneCD and Nero is the only other application that I
know that might reliably recognize and burn the images if they are in
fact not flawed.

I have already tried to install both programs; CloneCD installed without
problems, but would not run, starting the debugger immediately with an
error in the 32-bit code-- I would like to find out why, and if there is
a solution. I then tried to install Nero 6.3, but clicking either the
Nero 6-only setup button or the "install suite" button on the autorun
dialog blinked and returned me to the autorun dialog-- I'd like a
solution, if I cannot get CloneCD to run (which I don't think I can).

This is a real issue I am attempting to solve, and my goals are clear. I
am now going to the appdb to see if it will help me.

3.1) Gotta search for CloneCD, as I have no idea what category it would 
be in. Utilities=>File System, it turns out. Guess that makes sense, no 
idea if it's "intuitive". http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?appId=822

3.2) Version: not the version I have, but any port in a storm... 
Comments field says there's one comment. Also not a hopeful sign, but 
the appdb has been wrong about the comments before, and anyway, any port....

3.3) ..what the..???!!! There is no comment! Is the description being
counted as a comment? In any case, there is absolutely no information
whatsoever for this application (I don't call "Description:
Program for burning CD Especially to make clones of original CD\'s"
information), and there are Zarro bugs found in Bugzilla (of course; I'm 
not even certain if Bugzilla is even linked to and indexed with the 
appdb in that way yet).

OK, this is a dead end. Guess I'd better try to fix Nero, so it's off to 
http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?appId=152 .

4.1) Hey, the first app I've looked at in this db with a "native
alternative" link. Nice, but I'm not reading the description anyway (I
know what Nero Burning ROM is and does), so I almost missed it. I think 
that the link should be underneath the link to the Nero URL, above the 
screenshot (one extra field, thus; "Native Alternative  <link to K3b>").

I'd be much more likely to see it then (if I didn't know about K3b already).

4.2) Versions: all versions that an 'ordinary' user might have are 
represented, good; no comments counted for any of them, bad (if true). 
Following the link to 6.x.

4.3) Nope, there are in fact no comments. And the description field is
exactly the same, except without the native alternative link. What is
the point of that? It's Nero version 6, one can reasonably assume that
the program has not suddenly changed from the CD-burning application
described on the overview page to a word processor, so why not at least
put the changelog here.... oh, right, because we're not trying to sell 
Nero, which would be the only reason to put Nero's changelog in this 
field. It becomes much clearer now why the "Description" field is 
useless, and should be replaced by a "Summary" of whether this version 
of this application works in any way under Wine, and then the comments 
could/should contain solutions to the specific common problems a user 
might encounter when trying to install or run this (version of the) 
program. As it is, there's nothing for me here; let's see if version 5.x 
is any better.

4.4) huh, 7 comments, when none are counted on the overview page.

4.5) Two comments look like they might be helpful if I have problems
attempting to install an earlier version of Nero (which I may have no
choice but to attempt, since the appdb has no assistance for my
preferred version of Nero, or my preferred application, CloneCD).

4.6) The most useful snippet on this page is the mention of Frank's 
Corner (without a link, but I know where it is), where I would next go 
to see if I can find some adequate instructions/help/guidance for one or 
both of these programs (not to mention IWD and IWD2).

In actual fact, what I will probably do is transfer the CloneCD images
to my boyfriends Windows PC, install CloneCD there, and burn them that
way. It's a pain, but ultimately faster and easier than trying to find
any organized assistance on these programs via the appdb. Which is just 
a bloody shame, imho.

Anyway, I'm terribly sorry this was so long, but it seemed past time to 
offer some input on actual useability issues in the midst of all
this discussion. The appdb does "work" as it is (I can navigate it, read 
the entries, etc); I assume that it will "work" when/if adjusted, both 
in terms of code, and with the addition of active maintainers. But it is 
barely of any *use* whatsoever as it is, and it's not clear to me 
whether the proposed redesign and/or increasing numbers of active 
maintainers will improve the db's practical functionality for users, for 
whom I feel this complex and difficult to maintain database should be a 
primary resource, from which they can both receive and offer assistance 
in an organized fashion. Or have I misunderstood the function of the 
appdb entirely?

Holly

[Jonathan Ernst]

Le lundi 07 février 2005 à 01:16 +0100, Holly Bostick a écrit :
> 1.2) The "Description" area is well-placed and sized, but the 
> information contained therein is generally pointless and should be a 
> "Summary" instead. Most of the descriptions I read told me what the 
> application is and does as if I was making a buying decision. However, I 
> believe that in most cases (certainly my case), users are already 
> familiar with the capabilities of the program itself (since they already 
> have it), thus telling users what a program they already have actually 
> does is a waste of space.

Application description describe the application (general description).
For wine-related description (or summary), you have to browse the
versions of an application. 
Now the problem is that we used to copy the application description in
the version description when submitting an application/version in the
database. This will change with a patch I will submit in some days.
> What I would have found more useful on what is essentially the
> "overview" page is some indication as to whether the problems with the 
> application that I am consulting the app database about are known, and 
> whether they are solveable (so I'd know whether to continue with the 
> appdb or if I need to immediately begin searching elsewhere for 
> solutions). A nice bulletted list (or a couple of them) would do just 
> fine: "Installs: Yes, no, with modification (the last being a link to 
> the comment explaining the needed modifications); "Runs: Yes, no, with 
> modifications (as above); "Known Problems: Bulleted list (with links), 
> none".

This is now very easy to make thanks to the new templates. You can see
example of recently modified descriptions here:
http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?versionId=2626
http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?versionId=2602
> If such a summary was provided on the main application page, I would not
> mind so much having to go to yet another page (fifth link, now) in order
> to find specific details on possible issues with the particular 
> *version* of the program I'm trying to install/run.

Each version has it's own problems, putting problems in the general
application page doesn't make much sense imho.
> 1.4) The big "Become a super maintainer" link/button is nice, and
> encourages me to become one (via guilt; because I'm attempting to look
> up programs I very commonly install under Wine whenever I install a new
> distribution, I feel I might be familiar enough with the issues 
> surrounding them  that I should contribute something back) but I do not 
> become a maintainer because:
>
> 1.4a) I couldn't log in via that login button anyway; I had to use the 
> side menu link and then go back to the page I was on. Fortunately the

Works here.
> "send a new password" link on the login page that the "Log in to become 
> a maintainer" button takes you to didn't seem to work either, so I was

Works again since ~ Sun, 06 Feb 2005 19:18:03 +0100
> able to look up my original password in a password maintenance progam
> (PCMagazine's 6-year-old Password Prompter) that I run via Wine (which
> is why I hadn't so much bothered to stop what I was doing and look it up
> in the first place) and use my real login in the side menu link instead;
>
> 1.4b) more importantly, I do not know what the responsibilities of a
> "maintainer" are-- much less a "super maintainer". There is no link on
> that page as to what this means (not even a little question mark with a
> tooltip popup), and no indication as to whether actually clicking the
> button will go to an "intermediate" page which explains what it is, or
> just sets your login as the maintainer for this app (since I have 
> specifically had to log in in order to enable this button in the first 
> place, it's not an unreasonable assumption that that might occur).

When you click on the button the responsabilities are explained.
It is currently broken but I have a patch that'll fix it.
> Since I didn't know what would happen, and didn't know if I wanted to or
> was capable of fulfilling what might be a committment (how much do I
> need to know about the program? How much do I need to know about
> programming? Do I need to have a version of Windows available to know
> how the program runs there, so I can compare it to how it runs under
> Wine?), I did not click the button, so the apps will remain unmaintained 
> for the time being (or they won't be maintained by me, anyway).

You can resign anytime from being a maintainer so you don't take too
much risk when clicking on this button...
> Weirdly enough, going to the version page for the application offers me
> the opportunity to be a "regular" maintainer-- so, what, that means I
> would be a maintainer for that specific version, whereas "super 
> maintainer" means that I'd be maintainer for all versions, like some 
> kind of 'team leader'? I'm not sure that either makes sense to me as a

Exactly, supermaintainer maintains the application and all versions and
maintainers maintain only one version. (but you can be maintainer of
different versions in the same app or different apps).
> 1.6) I hope that one of the responsibilities of the maintainer or super
> maintainer is to control comments in some way. I completely understand
> that users of the appdb who are having problems with any given app *have
> no other place to state their issue with the specific program in an
> organized and somewhat reliably maintained fashion* (as wine has no
> forums, and certainly no forums linked to the specific app). However,
> comments like
>
> "hmm... when exporting registry, the reg file is all messed up. It has
> weird symbols in it. Any idea what I'm doing wrong?"

Yes maintainers cand elete comments. If you answer to a comment the
whole thread would be notified of the new comment.

[...]
I'll check back the rest of your comments later ;-)

Thanks for your comments !

[Ivan Leo Puoti]

Holly Bostick wrote:
> I had to go through 4 links just to get to the main application page.
> First, the sidebar link from the main site to the appdb front page. This 
> front page is useless to me (and imo, fairly useless overall), since the
> majority of the "Gold" and "Silver' apps so prominently listed I already
> do/would use the native alternatives for in the case of winzip, p7zip, 
> Paint (Paint??! it's barely useful under Windows!), SimCity, IE, Excel, 
> ACDSee, Money, Frontpage/Dreamweaver, and Ant Movie Catalog. Others I do 
> not use at all, either because I have no use for them, in the case of 
> Powerpoint, Access and Visio, or because they are "special interest 
> programs" as in the case of Warcraft and Age of Empires (I play games, 
> but not those).

I wonder why AoE is in the silver list, it won't be that trivial to get it working properly, 
actually there's quite a lot to do.

Ivan.

[Scott Ritchie]

On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 01:16 +0100, Holly Bostick wrote:
> I had forgotten the precise URL directly to the appdb, so I had to
> start from the main site, which brings me to my first useability
> complaint: too long a trail to get to the app I'm looking for.

First of all, thank you for writing this letter, it's immensely helpful
to people who so rarely get actual user experiences.  This is an
important point - it's kind of hard to make use of the AppDB, hence
there isn't much incentive to contribute to it.  One thing I would
definitely suggest is making the link more prominent on the WineHQ page
- "Applications" should be replaced with "Applications Database" in the
sidebar, for example.
> I had to go through 4 links just to get to the main application page.
> First, the sidebar link from the main site to the appdb front page. This 
> front page is useless to me (and imo, fairly useless overall), since the
> majority of the "Gold" and "Silver' apps so prominently listed I already
> do/would use the native alternatives for in the case of winzip, p7zip, 
> Paint (Paint??! it's barely useful under Windows!), SimCity, IE, Excel, 
> ACDSee, Money, Frontpage/Dreamweaver, and Ant Movie Catalog. Others I do 
> not use at all, either because I have no use for them, in the case of 
> Powerpoint, Access and Visio, or because they are "special interest 
> programs" as in the case of Warcraft and Age of Empires (I play games, 
> but not those).

We're currently struggling with just how to list applications anyway.
Currently those are the ones showing up since they're the only
maintained apps with non-garbage maintainer ratings.  I would second the
suggestion of moving the top rated apps off the front page to a much
nicer page, and replace the space they take up with some general AppDB
instructions as well as redundant links to the common features, such as
a listing of all the major/minor categories of applications.
> If such a summary was provided on the main application page, I would not
> mind so much having to go to yet another page (fifth link, now) in order
> to find specific details on possible issues with the particular 
> *version* of the program I'm trying to install/run.

One probably hard to do but extremely helpful change would be to make it
so that only apps with different major versions listed them.  There's no
reason clicking Icewind Dale should dump you into a window where you
have to click Version x again.  In fact, most apps don't even have
differences between the versions as far as Wine is concerned, so really
it should only be an exception where a user has to pick a version (such
as with Internet Explorer)

My recommended solution to this is to make the AppDB automatically
forward you to the page for the only version if there is only one
version for the application.  Requesting a new major version of an
application should then be funneled through the same process that adding
an application is.  For apps I currently maintain that don't really have
differences between versions, I currently write "All Versions" as the
version number where my howtos are and then delete any extraneous
subversions.
> 1.4b) more importantly, I do not know what the responsibilities of a
> "maintainer" are-- much less a "super maintainer". There is no link on
> that page as to what this means (not even a little question mark with a
> tooltip popup), and no indication as to whether actually clicking the
> button will go to an "intermediate" page which explains what it is, or
> just sets your login as the maintainer for this app (since I have 
> specifically had to log in in order to enable this button in the first 
> place, it's not an unreasonable assumption that that might occur).

I was going to do a writeup on this, but I got a bit scared away by the
lack of HTML templating in AppDB itself.  I don't know PHP, heh.
> Since I didn't know what would happen, and didn't know if I wanted to or
> was capable of fulfilling what might be a committment (how much do I
> need to know about the program? How much do I need to know about
> programming? Do I need to have a version of Windows available to know
> how the program runs there, so I can compare it to how it runs under
> Wine?), I did not click the button, so the apps will remain unmaintained 
> for the time being (or they won't be maintained by me, anyway).

I would highly recommend assuaging this point by putting some friendly
text encouraging users to post comments on the page.
> Weirdly enough, going to the version page for the application offers me
> the opportunity to be a "regular" maintainer-- so, what, that means I
> would be a maintainer for that specific version, whereas "super 
> maintainer" means that I'd be maintainer for all versions, like some 
> kind of 'team leader'? I'm not sure that either makes sense to me as a 
> user, nor that it is a logical setup generally, at least for games, 
> which usually should not be run at lower versions if a patch (which 
> increases the version while repairing errors) is available. So there is 
> in some ways no reason to maintain version "1.0" when no one should 
> actually be *running* version 1.0 other than immediately after install, 
> and then only for the 5 seconds before the user has installed one or 
> more patches (after which they will be running a higher version).

I agree emphatically..  Just as the distinction between different
versions is often unneeded, so too is the distinction between maintainer
and super maintainer.
> I'd really like to see forums or at least some kind of PM system so that
> the users of the applications could reliably communicate with the
> maintainer for the benefit of both parties. I see that Planescape:
> Torment (another game I have running under Wine, without issue;
> http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?versionId=437 ) has a maintainer,
> but his name is not a mailto: link, so I can't contact him (afaik) to 
> advise him of any new information I may have discovered short of posting 
> a comment myself... which is fine if it's new information (assuming that 
> my comment fits into the organizational structure of the db so that 
> following users can find it easily), but if it's an app-specific issue 
> that I want his help with, it's a waste of space (insofar as such a 
> comment provides no real information to other users searching the 
> database except a confirmation of the issue), and the appdb as it is 
> gives no assurance that the maintainer will see the comment anyway.

The goal should be for users to use the AppDB as a support forum.
Currently, I suppose App maintainers are supposed to read the problems
people have from posts, write up howtos addressing them, and delete the
posts once the issue is solved.  This should certainly be made more
clear, such as in that hypothetical maintainer document.
> Comments should also require the specification of the Wine version, the
> distribution under which it is used, and the type of install
> (self-compiled from source, distribution repository package, or Wine
> distribution package; I have visions of a radio button) to be attached
> to the comment, as new users often don't know to include this
> information, but it's pretty hard to answer many questions without
> having this information (so one has to ask, which wastes time and space).

This is on the todo list I think.
> Somebody's going to say I should write a FAQ myself and submit it as a
> patch, aren't they? Yes, OK, but let me finish this mail first ;-) .

Hey, it's how I got started contributing, writing letters like this and
then making fixes myself, heh.  More usability help is always needed,
and I hope we can at least see another letter from you in the
future :) .
> 1.7) Descriptions are really not very useful, for several reasons. Still 
> focusing on Icewind Dale (since that's the page I have open in the
> appdb atm), here's the Description for the version page:
>
> "Description
> CD Release. Runs from a modified Baulders Gate engine. Notes from that
> game would help here as well."
>
> But there's no link to said notes, nor are the relevant notes copied
> from that page and posted as an addendum, so even though this particular 
> description does contain some useful information (for once), it's not 
> even a lead, but only a suggestion of a lead. Big help.

A short briefing on "what to put in the description" for maintainers and
app submitters would be nice, but at the moment we don't even seem to
have a standard for what that should be.  Perhaps we'll bring it up in
IRC.
> 2.1) Only one version (the original version, although there is a 2.01
> patch), but whatever; according to the description, I am supposed to be
> able to install this, as long as I have an insanely old version of Wine
> (the original description was penned by someone installing under
> 20020904!), which I don't.

Seems like a regression!  Darn!  We might have caught it and fixed it
long ago if we had a maintainer for it, but there are significant
obstacles for that to happen, as you point out.  This is indeed
important, and again your contribution is highly valued.
> 3.3) ..what the..???!!! There is no comment! Is the description being
> counted as a comment? In any case, there is absolutely no information
> whatsoever for this application (I don't call "Description:
> Program for burning CD Especially to make clones of original CD\'s"
> information), and there are Zarro bugs found in Bugzilla (of course; I'm 
> not even certain if Bugzilla is even linked to and indexed with the 
> appdb in that way yet).

Linking bugzilla with AppDB is a nighttime fantasy of mine.  I imagine
one day being able to browse to an App (say, Fallout 2), read that it is
rated silver and should install fine, and then see a friendly list of
links to bugs in bugzilla that cover the app.  I'd like to see the
Fallout 2 page, see the nice silver rating telling me I can install it,
and then see a link to the bug "Fade in/Fade out effect can run very
slowly".  I'd also like to see this same bug linked in Fallout 1's page,
since it affects both, and I'd like to be able to list which bugs affect
these apps as the application's maintainer.  Then my user's could go to
the page, get the help and warning they need, and also follow the link
to the bug to maybe vote for it, offer insight, or learn what a required
patch might do.

Indexing bugzilla with AppDB would also make it a lot easier for
bughunters to know which bugs are more important - they could simply
look at which apps list them as important.  Currently, all of this is
done very ad-hoc, and bugzilla is rather underused and feels like a
jungle for application specific problems; formalizing AppDB into
bugzilla would be an amazing leap forward.

On a side note, the AppDB accounts should be the same as the Bugzilla
accounts.  That way one can register with the AppDB, go to his app, find
that his bug isn't listed, and file it all in one nice easy go.  He
could also be informed when the bug is fixed and he can try out his app
again.
> Anyway, I'm terribly sorry this was so long, but it seemed past time to 
> offer some input on actual useability issues in the midst of all
> this discussion. The appdb does "work" as it is (I can navigate it, read 
> the entries, etc); I assume that it will "work" when/if adjusted, both 
> in terms of code, and with the addition of active maintainers. But it is 
> barely of any *use* whatsoever as it is, and it's not clear to me 
> whether the proposed redesign and/or increasing numbers of active 
> maintainers will improve the db's practical functionality for users, for 
> whom I feel this complex and difficult to maintain database should be a 
> primary resource, from which they can both receive and offer assistance 
> in an organized fashion. Or have I misunderstood the function of the 
> appdb entirely?

No, AppDB's function is not to be useless and frustrating, heh.  Again,
your input is extremely valuable, and I thank you for taking the trouble
to register for the list and write up the letter.

Thanks,
Scott Ritchie
wannabe usability guy

[Jonathan Ernst]

Thanks again for your message.

Le lundi 07 février 2005 à 01:16 +0100, Holly Bostick a écrit :
> I had to go through 4 links just to get to the main application page.
> First, the sidebar link from the main site to the appdb front page. This

[FIXED] I sent a patch to replace "Applications" with "Applications
database" in www.winehq.org
> front page is useless to me (and imo, fairly useless overall), since the
> majority of the "Gold" and "Silver' apps so prominently listed I already
> do/would use the native alternatives for in the case of winzip, p7zip, 
> Paint (Paint??! it's barely useful under Windows!), SimCity, IE, Excel, 
> ACDSee, Money, Frontpage/Dreamweaver, and Ant Movie Catalog. Others I do 
> not use at all, either because I have no use for them, in the case of 
> Powerpoint, Access and Visio, or because they are "special interest 
> programs" as in the case of Warcraft and Age of Empires (I play games, 
> but not those).

[NOT FIXED] We have to discuss it and make changes to this first page.
Paint and other applications are here because peole voted for it (i.e.
the list is generated automatically).
> What I would have found more useful on what is essentially the
> "overview" page is some indication as to whether the problems with the 
> application that I am consulting the app database about are known, and 
> whether they are solveable (so I'd know whether to continue with the 
> appdb or if I need to immediately begin searching elsewhere for 
> solutions). A nice bulletted list (or a couple of them) would do just 
> fine: "Installs: Yes, no, with modification (the last being a link to 
> the comment explaining the needed modifications); "Runs: Yes, no, with 
> modifications (as above); "Known Problems: Bulleted list (with links), 
> none".

[FIXED] Application overview contains a general description of
application but version-specific pages (should) contains the
informations you are requesting and new templates are trying to enforce
that. Yes you have to click once more on your version but it is normal
imho as each versions has it's specific problems and the summarry under
the main overview tells you already if an application is Gold, Silver,
Bronze or Garbage.
> 1.4) The big "Become a super maintainer" link/button is nice, and
> encourages me to become one (via guilt; because I'm attempting to look
> up programs I very commonly install under Wine whenever I install a new
> distribution, I feel I might be familiar enough with the issues 
> surrounding them  that I should contribute something back) but I do not 
> become a maintainer because:
>
> 1.4a) I couldn't log in via that login button anyway; I had to use the 
> side menu link and then go back to the page I was on. Fortunately the 
> "send a new password" link on the login page that the "Log in to become 
> a maintainer" button takes you to didn't seem to work either, so I was 
> able to look up my original password in a password maintenance progam
> (PCMagazine's 6-year-old Password Prompter) that I run via Wine (which
> is why I hadn't so much bothered to stop what I was doing and look it up
> in the first place) and use my real login in the side menu link instead;

[FIXED] Please report back if you think otherwise.
> 1.4b) more importantly, I do not know what the responsibilities of a
> "maintainer" are-- much less a "super maintainer". There is no link on
> that page as to what this means (not even a little question mark with a
> tooltip popup), and no indication as to whether actually clicking the
> button will go to an "intermediate" page which explains what it is, or
> just sets your login as the maintainer for this app (since I have 
> specifically had to log in in order to enable this button in the first 
> place, it's not an unreasonable assumption that that might occur).

[FIXED/NOT FIXED] These informations are shown after clicking on the
button. But we discussed the possibility to add a "?" sign near the
button that will bring you to the related help page.
> Weirdly enough, going to the version page for the application offers me
> the opportunity to be a "regular" maintainer-- so, what, that means I
> would be a maintainer for that specific version, whereas "super 
> maintainer" means that I'd be maintainer for all versions, like some 
> kind of 'team leader'? I'm not sure that either makes sense to me as a 
> user, nor that it is a logical setup generally, at least for games,

[NOT FIXED] Yes it is what it means it should be explained in the help
section discussed above and the button should have a "?" sign as well.
> which usually should not be run at lower versions if a patch (which 
> increases the version while repairing errors) is available. So there is 
> in some ways no reason to maintain version "1.0" when no one should 
> actually be *running* version 1.0 other than immediately after install, 
> and then only for the 5 seconds before the user has installed one or 
> more patches (after which they will be running a higher version). There 
> are certainly some games that would require that several patch 
> levels/versions be maintained; I know of at least one (Settlers 3) that 
> only works (for my boyfriend under Windows 2000) with a lower patch than 
> the "latest" patch, and SiN (a game which I run under Wine despite a 
> native version being available, because I already have two copies of the 
> Windows version) is also very touchy about patches, so it certainly can 
> happen that multiple patch levels of a game might need to be separately 
> maintained. I would think that the game's maintainer would know if 
> his/her particular charge needed special circumstances though, and since 
> this is not a common situation (you usually want all users to be running 
> the latest patch, and this is usually a good idea), having it as a 
> general organizational strategy, at least in the games category, seems 
> to be unnecessary work.

[WONT FIX] We cannot handle different behaviour for games and other
categories. As you said it yourself there are cases when it makes sense
to maintain separate version. If it makes no sense it's the duty of the
app or version maintainer to rename his version (for example 1.x instead
of haveing version 1.1 and version 1.2 if their behaviour is the same).
> 1.5) Comments are not being counted properly on the main overview page;
> Icewind Dale actually has two comments on the version page (version 1.0,
> which again is not the "real" version as there are two expansion packs,
> both of which contain patches that increase the version number, and
> these patches are also available separately, so no one should be using
> "vanilla" 1.0), but the main page says that the number of comments are 0.

[FIXED] I sent a patch for this as well. Thank you for reporting.
> 1.6) I hope that one of the responsibilities of the maintainer or super
> maintainer is to control comments in some way. I completely understand
> that users of the appdb who are having problems with any given app *have
> no other place to state their issue with the specific program in an
> organized and somewhat reliably maintained fashion* (as wine has no
> forums, and certainly no forums linked to the specific app). However,
> comments like
>
> "hmm... when exporting registry, the reg file is all messed up. It has
> weird symbols in it. Any idea what I'm doing wrong?"
>
> have no place in the appdb. On the other hand, if I was the maintainer,

[FIXED] Yes maintainer, supermaintainers and administrators can delete
comments and explain why they deleted it.
> I would want to know that a user of the app that I maintained was
> evidencing this problem (assuming that the issue commented on is
> specific to the app, which in this case it probably is not), and help
> the user solve it so that I could update the procedure to install and
> run the app.
>
> I'd really like to see forums or at least some kind of PM system so that
> the users of the applications could reliably communicate with the
> maintainer for the benefit of both parties. I see that Planescape:
> Torment (another game I have running under Wine, without issue;
> http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?versionId=437 ) has a maintainer,
> but his name is not a mailto: link, so I can't contact him (afaik) to 
> advise him of any new information I may have discovered short of posting 
> a comment myself... which is fine if it's new information (assuming that 
> my comment fits into the organizational structure of the db so that 
> following users can find it easily), but if it's an app-specific issue 
> that I want his help with, it's a waste of space (insofar as such a 
> comment provides no real information to other users searching the 
> database except a confirmation of the issue), and the appdb as it is 
> gives no assurance that the maintainer will see the comment anyway.

[FIXED] Maintainers, Supermaintainers and Administrators  receive e-mail
telling them an user made a comment in applications they maintain. If
the comment is in reply to another comment the other people in the
thread receive the email as well.
> Comments should also require the specification of the Wine version, the
> distribution under which it is used, and the type of install
> (self-compiled from source, distribution repository package, or Wine
> distribution package; I have visions of a radio button) to be attached
> to the comment, as new users often don't know to include this
> information, but it's pretty hard to answer many questions without
> having this information (so one has to ask, which wastes time and space).

[NOT FIXED] Good idea. Might be worth implementing it.
> A Wine FAQ at the forefront of the appdb, or even linked to each
> application's overview page might be nice, too, for more general issues
> like the above comment-- an explanation of basic procedures such as
> exporting/importing registry entries, what common errors mean, like the
> "Warning: The specified Windows directory L"C:\\Windows" is not
> accessible" error and what to do about it, why not to get all freaked
> out by seeing "fixme"s, and simple statements like the fact that some 
> programs will run fine with wine /path/to/app.exe, but some will fail 
> that way with very scary looking errors, but will run fine if one first 
> cds to /path/to/ and then runs wine app.exe. This kind of thing is often
> something new Wine users don't know, but is a very simple way to
> eliminate possible vectors of error before going to any mailing list or
> forum with problems, and may eliminate the need for a user to ask for
> help at all (as the program works when started in the alternate manner).

[NOT FIXED] Good idea too. Might be worth implementing it in the help system.
> Somebody's going to say I should write a FAQ myself and submit it as a
> patch, aren't they? Yes, OK, but let me finish this mail first ;-) .

Are you thinking to do that ?
> 1.7) Descriptions are really not very useful, for several reasons. Still 
> focusing on Icewind Dale (since that's the page I have open in the
> appdb atm), here's the Description for the version page:
>
> "Description
> CD Release. Runs from a modified Baulders Gate engine. Notes from that
> game would help here as well."
>
> But there's no link to said notes, nor are the relevant notes copied
> from that page and posted as an addendum, so even though this particular 
> description does contain some useful information (for once), it's not 
> even a lead, but only a suggestion of a lead. Big help.

This should be fixed by maintainers.
> 1.8) (or, "On the road again") Off to the Baldur's Gate page, then... 
> Back button to the subcategory (Games=>Role-Playing; thank heavens 
> they're the same type), follow a new link to the Baldur's Gate page... 
> I'm ranging far afield now, but in this case, that's OK. I have BG as 
> well, but haven't installed it yet, so it's useful for me to look at the 
> page anyway. Luckily. Because if I didn't have BG, I would now be 
> traveling to the page of a completely different application in which I 
> had no interest, with no assurance that what I find there will be of any 
> use to me. In that case, I'd probaly be pretty bloody pissed off by now, 
> given that I would have spent a fair amount of time trailing around the 
> appdb without being so much as a single step closer to solving my actual 
> problem with the original application, or even having it confirmed as a 
> known problem, or receiving a clue that implied "user error", or 
> anything whatsoever that would give me a troubleshooting or solution 
> trail. http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?appId=157 if you'd like to 
> come with me.

Hmm not sur I understood you on this one.
> 1.9) (or, "Helpful help?") Well, there are helpful notes there on the BG 
> page, or rather, actual solutions to potential problems that I might 
> have were I installing BG, which I remind you that I am not. Mind you, 
> I, a simple user, don't know if the solutions posted for Baldur's Gate 
> are problems that also exist under Icewind Dale -- well, actually, I 
> personally do know, because I have run IWD and IWD2 under Wine in the 
> past, and am currently running Planescape: Torment, (which btw runs 
> great under 20050111 without any modification to Wine dlls, one 
> appdb-documented change to the game's configuration file, and one small, 
> optional [AppDefault] in Wine's config). All 5 of these games (IWD, 
> IWD2, BG, BG2, and Planescape) are made by Black Isle, use more or less 
> the same engine, and evidence similar problems to each other. But this 
> does not mean that "your average user" would have any experience with 
> multiple Black Isle games and thus know their technical similarities and 
> differences.
>
> The solutions on the Baldur's Gate page are general enough to be worth 
> trying if IWD did not run at all, or ran poorly. However, this is not my 
> problem; IWD installs perfectly and seems to run quite well (except for 
> one minor but annoying issue related to Managed or Desktop settings that 
> I haven't yet idenitified how to fix, since the way I fixed the same 
> issue for Planescape doesn't seem to work here). Thus, none of the 
> listed issues for Baldur's Gate is related to my actual problem with 
> Icewind Dale, the specific application I have trailed all over the appdb 
> trying to fix-- and the foremost reason is that my problem is not with 
> IWD itself, but with installing the the expansion pack, "Heart of 
> Winter", and
>
> 1.10) *this application is not listed in the appdb*, either as a version 
> of IWD (since installing the expansion does require IWD, and does patch 
> the original to a higher version), or as a separate program.

You won't find every application and version in the appdb, nor every fix and problem. That's why you as an user can:
- submit applications and versions
- submit screenshots
- submit how-tos, notes and comments
- modify application and version description (maintainer)
- etc.

You seem to know how to make many application run fine, why don't you
share this knowlege with other appdb users ? You'll make the appdb more
usefull for many and so more people will come and visit the appdb. Some
of these new users you attracted might know more than you on
applications you failed to make to run and might decide to contribute
as you did. That way everybody will benefit.
> Also not listed are the Baldur's Gate expansion, "Tales of the Sword
> Coast", and the Baldur's Gate 2 expansion "Throne of Bhaal", so I hope I
> have no trouble installing those expansion packs when I get around to

Please submit thes new versions or application if you can.
> it. However, given that I am already unable to install the expansion
> pack for IWD, and since I know that IWD and Baldur's Gate are strongly
> related, I'm expecting the worst-- and since the appdb is unable to help
> me with IWD: Heart of Winter (nothing said about the official, free,
> downloadable final expansion, Trials of the Luremaster, which is also
> not in the database), if I hit trouble, I already know where I *won't*

Same here ;-).
> find any help.
>
> Fine, I'm stopped cold with this issue, let's stop quickly by the
> Icewind Dale 2 page ( http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?appId=1033 )
> and see if there's help for me there; the issue being that it won't
> begin the install. InstallShield fails to extract/open with a regular
> Windows-type dialog saying either that some dll in the /tmp/{long
> CLSID-looking-string-of-numbers} folder can't be opened, or that
> IKernel.exe can't be run. Actually the same issue I'm having when trying 
> to install IWD:HoW, which doesn't surprise me very much, as I would 
> guess that the Installshield for IWD:HoW and IWD2 are more closely 
> related to each other than the one for the original IWD. Since the 
> issues seem similar, maybe there's a fix for both apps on the IWD2 page.
>
> 2.1) Only one version (the original version, although there is a 2.01
> patch), but whatever; according to the description, I am supposed to be

Same here, any user can submit a new version ;-).
> able to install this, as long as I have an insanely old version of Wine
> (the original description was penned by someone installing under
> 20020904!), which I don't.

The fact that someone reported that an application worked fine with
Wine 20020904 doesn't mean it won't run with a newer version. On the
opposite, regressions are not so common in Wine nowadays and if you or
any user finds out that an application which was working with an older
version of wine doesn't work anymore you can just send an e-mail to
wine-devel to spot the regression. On the other hand if you find an old
comment like this and can confirm that it still works using the current
Wine version, you can tell others by adding a comment or modifying the
description (please keep an history of reported Wine-version tested) if
you are a maintainer.
> 2.2) Two comments listed on the overview page, only one comment in 
> actuality.

[FIXED] The patch should be comitted tonight.
> 2.3) I'll try the workaround listed in the description, but since the
> version of Wine used is so distant from what I actually have, and the
> error which the workaround is fixing may or may not be the same one I'm
> having (it's impossible to tell), and furthermore may not even be needed
> anymore given the improvements in Wine in the meantime, I don't have 
> much hope that it will work. But it's the only lead I have, as far as 
> the appdb is concerned. Given that my second-best source of 
> information--Transgaming's games database and forums-- has been blown 
> away and replaced with a new games database (for which little or no data 
> for most individual games has yet been entered), I don't have many other 
> options than the appdb, since sites like Frank's Corner only cover a 
> very limited selection of apps/games, and the various IWD sites on the 
> Web don't cover Linux).
>
> If the workaround doesn't work, I will probably dig up my backup of my
> last installed and updated Win98-- which I cleverly saved all the
> system files from before blowing it away, for just such an eventuality--
> and "taint" my Wine installation by copying over the "real"
> InstallShield files to the fake windows Common Files. This will probably
> work-- it has in the past-- but I was really hoping to run 'pure' Wine
> this time around. It has so been improving by leaps and bounds lately.

If you take time to investigate this you might then report back in the
appdb so that next user will have mor luck than you had in the first
place.
> Let's see if things are any better in the Applications section. My issue
> here is that I need to burn some CloneCD images. K3b claims they are
> unuseable, and ccd2iso did not create recognizeable isos from them. It
> remains unclear whether this is because the images themselves are no
> good, or because there is a problem with ccd2iso, which several users
> claimed was the case on the project site's bug tracker (
> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=94638&atid=608541 ). So I want
> to install either CloneCD (preferred), or Nero (version 6 or above,
> which I *think* will also recognize the images, I have version 5.* as
> well, but I don't *think* it will solve my problem to install it, as I'm
> not sure when Nero's recognition of *.ccd images became reliable, but I
> believe it was with version 6, if in fact it is reliable at all), to see
> if the error is in the images themselves, or burn them if the problem is
> with K3b.
>
> I do not have any real interest in installing these programs on their
> own account, although if I kept one, I would keep CloneCD for the
> specific use of handling .ccd images, on the rare occasion that I need
> to deal with them. I would prefer not to install Nero at all, and
> certainly not to keep it, as it's too much overhead for the only use I
> have for it (for my normal requirements, K3b is perfectly adequate). The
> only reason Nero is under consideration at all is that I may not be able
> to install or use CloneCD and Nero is the only other application that I
> know that might reliably recognize and burn the images if they are in
> fact not flawed.
>
> I have already tried to install both programs; CloneCD installed without
> problems, but would not run, starting the debugger immediately with an
> error in the 32-bit code-- I would like to find out why, and if there is
> a solution. I then tried to install Nero 6.3, but clicking either the
> Nero 6-only setup button or the "install suite" button on the autorun
> dialog blinked and returned me to the autorun dialog-- I'd like a
> solution, if I cannot get CloneCD to run (which I don't think I can).

This kind of informations would be very usefull to other appdb users.
> This is a real issue I am attempting to solve, and my goals are clear. I
> am now going to the appdb to see if it will help me.
>
> 3.1) Gotta search for CloneCD, as I have no idea what category it would 
> be in. Utilities=>File System, it turns out. Guess that makes sense, no 
> idea if it's "intuitive". http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?appId=822

[NOT FIXED] Yeah I always found it odd to find cd-r applications in this category.
> 3.2) Version: not the version I have, but any port in a storm... 
> Comments field says there's one comment. Also not a hopeful sign, but 
> the appdb has been wrong about the comments before, and anyway, any port....

[FIXED]...
> 3.3) ..what the..???!!! There is no comment! Is the description being
> counted as a comment? In any case, there is absolutely no information

[FIXED]...
> whatsoever for this application (I don't call "Description:
> Program for burning CD Especially to make clones of original CD\'s"
> information), and there are Zarro bugs found in Bugzilla (of course; I'm 
> not even certain if Bugzilla is even linked to and indexed with the 
> appdb in that way yet).
>
> OK, this is a dead end. Guess I'd better try to fix Nero, so it's off to 
> http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?appId=152 .
>
> 4.1) Hey, the first app I've looked at in this db with a "native
> alternative" link. Nice, but I'm not reading the description anyway (I
> know what Nero Burning ROM is and does), so I almost missed it. I think 
> that the link should be underneath the link to the Nero URL, above the 
> screenshot (one extra field, thus; "Native Alternative  <link to K3b>").
>
> I'd be much more likely to see it then (if I didn't know about K3b already).

[FIXED] It's now possible (again) to add applicatin specific links in the place you mention.
> 4.2) Versions: all versions that an 'ordinary' user might have are 
> represented, good; no comments counted for any of them, bad (if true). 
> Following the link to 6.x.
>
> 4.3) Nope, there are in fact no comments. And the description field is
> exactly the same, except without the native alternative link. What is
> the point of that? It's Nero version 6, one can reasonably assume that

[FIXED] Before the recent changes I made. Version description and
application description was identical when a new application was
submitted. Now people have to enter two different descriptions for
application and version (and these fields have templates).
> 4.4) huh, 7 comments, when none are counted on the overview page.

[FIXED]



Thanks again, I'd be happy to see you reporting back.
Jonathan

[Holly Bostick]

Jonathan Ernst wrote:
> Thanks again for your message.

Jonathan, thank YOU for your support and encouragement. And also thanks 
to you and everyone helping to make a place for "the middleman" to 
provide useful input, and a mechanism by which it can be heard; since 
the appdb wasn't really functional, there was not much point in using 
it... now there is. Good Lord, it's turning into a real information 
production line! Woo-hoo!
> Le lundi 07 février 2005 à 01:16 +0100, Holly Bostick a écrit :
> > I had to go through 4 links just to get to the main application page.
> > First, the sidebar link from the main site to the appdb front page. This
>
> [FIXED] I sent a patch to replace "Applications" with "Applications
> database" in www.winehq.org

Thanks! It's not showing yet, but I'm sure it will soon, and it will 
make the menu choice somewhat more understandable to many users, I think.

EDIT: Now it's there. It does clarify the entry nicely.
> > front page is useless to me (and imo, fairly useless overall),
>
> [NOT FIXED] We have to discuss it and make changes to this first page.
> Paint and other applications are here because peole voted for it (i.e.
> the list is generated automatically).

Fair enough....but when were these applications actually voted for (is 
the list outdated), and how do you actually vote, anyway? I understand 
that on previous visits to the appdb, I wasn't logged in, so was unable 
to vote (does that make sense, btw? Shades of Transgaming...), but now I 
am logged in and I don't see any method on the front page to actually 
vote for an application-- nor, in fact, what voting for an application 
actually accomplishes.

The applications listed as Gold and Silver are apps which meet both of 
the following conditions (I'm working this out as I type) 1) they work 
out of the box or with minor modifications (neither of which is a 
votable condition, the condition either exists or doesn't) and 2) they 
have been voted as a "Favorite" by users.

Fine (if that's the case), but we care because why, exactly? If WinZip 
is the favorite "works perfectly out of the box" application among users 
(whenever these users may have actually voted, since I can't seem to 
vote *today*, but we'll get to that), well, what does it get us to have 
that on the front page?

Leaving aside the fact that there is no real reason to even run WinZip 
under Wine (given that zip is provided by default with every 
distribution, so *.zip files are already handled, WinZip doesn't handle 
*.rar files or *.ace files, iirc, and in any case, both unrar and unace 
are available by selection under Linux as well, so that's no excuse 
either), I don't particularly care that everybody else finds that 
application their favorite. Furthermore, I'm either not at the appdb at 
all, or if I am, I am not looking for WinZip, *because it runs 
perfectly*! Thus the only information I'm getting is that it runs 
perfectly (which I already knew if I've tried to install and run it; how 
likely is it that I've come to the appdb to "shop" for base utilities 
like WinZip to see if they run before proceeding?), and that the 
proportion of the userbase that cares enough to register and vote loves 
it. Yeah, and? What "big picture" am I missing here?

As for my ability or inability to vote: Here I am on the front page of 
the appdb, which shows the results of registered user votes, right?

Here's the text:


-------------------------------
Welcome

This is the Wine Application Database. From here you get info on 
application compatibility with Wine. For developers, you can get 
information on the APIs used in an application.
------------------------------------


Oooh, I can? Never noticed that.... sounds like it would be useful 
information even for a non-coding maintainer, since I would then have a 
better idea what debug channels I'd want to use in case of trouble. Must 
explore later.


-------------------------------------------------
As an Application database member you enjoy some exclusive benefits like:

     * Ability to Vote on Favorite Applications
-------------------------------------------------


I am logged in, thus a member, thus I should be able to vote, if there 
was a way to do so, but I don't see it.


---------------------------------------------------

     * Access to the Application Rating System. Rate the apps that 
"Don't Suck"

-----------------------------------------------------------


Not clear. "Don't suck" in what respect? I mean, plenty of games/apps 
may run fine, but still "suck" (not have been worth the trouble, which 
is the primary definition of this term). But since that's not what we 
mean (I suppose), what is the definition of "sucking"? Septerra Core ran 
perfectly after the addition of some Registry entries (bug in both 
Windows 2000 and above and Wine that Reg entries are not written), but 
the Quicktime cutscenes did not play, although QT was installed. 
Unfortunately, the final reward cutscene for finishing the game is (I'm 
almost sure, haven't actually finished the game yet) a Quicktime movie. 
Thus, the game itself runs perfectly, but you can't see the reward for 
finishing it (and get the answer to the central mystery of the game). 
Does that "suck" or not?

IMHO as a user, it does. In the eyes of a Wine dev, I would think it 
does not (since 99% of the game code runs perfectly). So who defines 
what "sucks"?


---------------------------------------------------

     * Ability to customize the View of the Apps DB and Comment System
     * Take Credit for your witty posts
     * Ability to sign up to be an application maintainer.
     * Submit new applications and versions.

We'd like to thank your for being a member and being logged in the 
system. Your help in stomping out Wine issues will be greatly appreciated.

If you have screenshots or links to contribute, please browse the 
database and use the AppDB interface to send us your contributions.

If you have anything else to contribute (howtos, etc.), enroll to be an 
application maintainer or contact us at: appdb(a)winehq.org
Note that this address is not for end-user support, for end user support 
please use the mailing lists or newsgroups that you'll find on the main 
website.
There are 2506 applications currently in the database with Visual FoxPro 
being the top voted application.
-------------------------------------------------


OK, here we come to the crux of things. Visual FoxPro is the top voted 
application? Then why is WinZip first on the Gold List?

*Visual FoxPro does not even appear on the page*!!!

Oh, right.... I see (after I found out the voting mechanism, understood 
what voting is supposed to be about and came back to this section of the 
mail). Voted applications are the ones you most want to see working (but 
are not listed on the page which discusses voting), and the applications 
shown on the page are the most popular already-working applications.

It's giving me a headache, so I can't explain why that makes no sense, 
but it makes no sense. What it adds up to is that the voting procedure 
mentioned as a benefit of registration has no relationship to the 
content of the rest of the page, which displays the results of a 
different (but not specified as different) voting process, and neither 
of these voting processes are carried out on the page in question. What 
a mess. The quick and dirty hack that comes to mind is that these two 
pieces of information (benefits of registration and results of the Gold 
and Silver voting) should be on different pages. In fact, that's not a 
bad idea, because then you could put the results of the "Wishlist" 
voting on that page as well (assuming that the "Wishlist" remains in 
force; more on that shortly), consolidating all the "user-voted" data on 
one page, so we'd all know where to look for such data if we wanted it.

The word "voted" in the sentence "There are 2506 applications currently 
in the database with Visual FoxPro being the top voted application." is 
a link to http://appdb.winehq.org/votestats.php (also linked to by the 
Top 25 link in the side menu). I followed this link under the assumption 
that it would lead me to somewhere where I could vote, but it does not 
appear to; there is a banner at the top of the page offering me the 
ability to change the number of Top Apps to be displayed, and the 
Category of Top Apps to be displayed, but no apps are actually displayed 
  using the default settings (25, Any).

Oh, and the Category drop-down does not contain any further entries than 
"Any" so I can't change that anyway, and changing the number of apps to 
be displayed has no effect either.

EDIT: This has been fixed in the time it has taken me to compose this 
mail. Yay, team!

There certainly is no "Vote" option.


I then went to the Excel 2000 page (just because I knew it had votes), 
and did not find any option to vote... oh, wait, there it is! Down the 
side, as a new addition to the sidebar menu. Fine.... but I don't think 
3 radio buttons for "No App Selected" are going to help me.

Fine, let's follow this "Voting Help" link and see if it helps.

--------------------------------------------------

Application Voting System Help

The Application Database features a voting system that allows you to 
pick which 3 applications you would MOST like to see running in Wine.

Step by Step help on Voting

    1. Log into the Application Database.

    2. Browse to the Application you wish to add to your vote list.

    3. In the sidebar, Click one of the 3 available slots, and click Vote.

    4. Done!

---------------------------------------------------------

OK, now I know how to vote. A bit counter-intuitive, but I guess it will 
work. The main thing I see is that these instructions (or a link 
thereto) need to be on the front page of the appdb, where voting is 
first discussed. The only reason I went to an application page was 
because I was troubleshooting this voting procedure; any "reasonable 
user", presented with the results of a poll which the page informs them 
they may participate in, would expect the means of such participation to 
be on the page they are currently on, and if not, that instructions to 
guide them to the proper location be on the page they are on. For this 
procedure, neither is the case.


The second thing I see is that I was not too far off with my "Shades of 
Transgaming" comment. Yeah, right, pick the three applications I would 
most like to see running under Wine. Why? What good is it going to do?

a) if the most-voted applications are unmaintained (as is Excel 2000, 
which I will use as an example, since I would expect it to be highly 
voted; let's pretend that we have no association with any group who has 
Excel running perfectly well :-) ), just what is the mechanism for the 
dev team to stop whatever they might be working on and focus on getting 
*just* Excel 2000 to work? If there is no coordination (maintainer) 
between the application's specific problems and the team's coding 
efforts, what is the incentive for volunteers to pile on this additional 
load? Are you depending on the charity of strangers (if someone cares 
enough to vote, they will care enough to become a maintainer), the 
charity of the dev team (to do all the footwork manually, as there is no 
maintainer to apply the first layer of elbow grease), or just "hoping it 
will all work itself out somehow"? If I have no reason to believe that 
my voting will affect the dev teams activities, why should I bother to 
register and vote?

b) if my three applications are not highly voted (which they likely 
would not be, given that there are thousands of applications to choose 
from, and a couple of thousand in the database), I have no option to 
increase voting support (at least on the old TG forums, you could call 
for a vote and get a "low-voted" application onto the monthly poll). If 
I feel my vote is useless, why should I register and vote?

c) Is there really a benefit in getting specific applications working at 
the cost of specific program classes (or APIs or whatever)? The reason 
that I like Wine over TG is that Wine works on getting DX8 (or 9 or 
whatever) working, whereas TG works on getting Morrowind working. Now as 
it happens, I do play Morrowind, so that works for me, but while 
Morrowind may work under Cedega, pick-your-random-DX8-game does not. 
Whereas under Wine, if somebody fixes (I dunno) dinput.dll, then 
*everything* that broke because it wasn't working gets fixed. Which 
ultimately works out better for me, because I have a much better chance 
of running *anything* I might choose to run, instead of being locked 
into one game or app that has been specifically hacked into working 
because everybody voted for it (but none of the other apps or games I 
might want to run actually do, because the hacks were specific to the 
one game or app rather than general).

d) My impression has always been that the voting mechanism for TG has 
been a somewhat desperate attempt to add value for the forced 
subscription; collecting votes for your particular application is an 
effort to essentially "force" TG to direct the devs in their employ {who 
are presumably paid with the money you already gave TG) to use their 
time to hack your application to a working status, thereby allowing you 
to get value from what you already paid for, so that you will happily 
continue to subscribe (hopefully; it's a pretty thin hypothesis, but 
it's all a subscriber has to hold on to in order to justify this 
purchase). The only reason I believe that voting on TG's site does 
anything at all is because money is involved-- and the reason I believe 
it's really wishful thinking on my part is because I'm the only one 
giving money away. Let's face it, they're basically saying "buy our 
coffeemaker, and if you vote, we will 'enable' it to make (Special Blend 
Columbian Roast) coffee for you". My money is already gone if I have 
stupidly bought a product that doesn't necessarily do what it says on 
the tin in the first place, so why should I believe that the 
manufacturer is actually honorable enough to keep more of their 
"carrot-and-stick" promises?

I mention this only because at least there I can find a (very tenuous) 
logical chain of incentive to vote. I don't see what motivation my 
voting gives to the Wine devs (who's going to "force" them to stop 
working on whatever they're interested in and work on Uru: Ages Beyond 
Myst?), and because of that, I don't see what is the incentive for me to 
vote, or in fact what is the purpose of this entire voting business. Is 
it possibly an implementation of an idea that was obsoleted by later 
changes in the project's direction? If not, it needs to be made much 
clearer what function it serves within the "project production line".


----------------------------------------------------------------

Voting System Notes

     * Please seriously only vote for applications which will benefit 
the community. Don't vote for applications that are known to work well. 
We know Solitaire works. Voting for it would not make much sense.

     * When voting for an application, you are voting for ALL its 
various versions. There is a separate system in place for ranking versions.

     * You can clear your vote at anytime. Simply browse to any 
application in the database, select the slot you want to clear, and 
click the Clear button.

--------------------------------------------------------


"* Please seriously only vote for applications which will benefit the 
community."

In the judgement of whom? Which community, for that matter? Many feel 
that improving the ability to run your previously-purchased Windows 
games will encourage migration for home users; naturally, improving the 
ability to run various office-centered applications will stimulate and 
encourage enterprise and small business migration. Users from either 
group will not really have any overview of benefit to "the community" as 
a whole, since they are most likely new users, who 1) have no experience 
with "the community", and 2) may often run Windows applications under 
Wine for which there is a native alternative simply because they are 
unfamiliar with Linux and with the operation of the alternative, and so 
prefer to stick with "the devil they know" (thus, they know even less 
about the community than they might otherwise, because they are not 
participating in it fully, but instead using Wine as a "buffer zone" to 
avoid it).

Furthermore, most users probably don't care anyway. I myself don't care 
if getting Icewind Dale running "benefits the community"; it benefits 
*me*, and the community of which I am a member is benefited only by 
extension. Getting it running does enable me to provide information to 
those members of the community that have an interest in about Icewind 
Dale, which I do care about, but I'm not sure that my caring to 
contribute helpful information to the community has any relationship to 
this particular decision of whether to vote for this specific 
application or not.

I mean, fine, if I was really going to vote for applications that will 
benefit the community, I would be voting for some DTP app (many feel 
that Scribus is just not there yet), some audio recording app (I'm sure 
we've all heard the stories of attempting professional audio 
manipulation under Linux) and I guess Photoshop (since many say that The 
Gimp is very nice, but just not as good). That's what would be of most 
benefit to the community, based on my knowledge of the community. But I 
do not do DTP, or record professional audio, or do graphics 
manipulation-- and I am not so selfless that I am going to vote for 3 
applications that are of great use to the community, but no use to me 
personally.

I find this request stress-inducing and vaguely antagonistic. I 
understand that users should be warned not to vote frivolously, but I 
don't think this is quite the way it should be phrased (though the 
"correct" phrasing is not leaping to my mind ;-) )
> > What I would have found more useful on what is essentially the
> > "overview" page is some indication as to whether the problems with the 
> > application that I am consulting the app database about are known
>
> [FIXED] Application overview contains a general description of
> application but version-specific pages (should) contains the
> informations you are requesting and new templates are trying to enforce
> that. Yes you have to click once more on your version but it is normal
> imho as each versions has it's specific problems and the summarry under
> the main overview tells you already if an application is Gold, Silver,
> Bronze or Garbage.

Indeed, fixed, I checked the page for Fallout, which is maintained, and 
it looks both "very nice indeed" and "helpful"!!! Looking forward to 
this month's release, since I have not installed Fallout in months due 
to this issue (and I'd like to finish the game; I was enjoying it).
> > 1.4) The big "Become a super maintainer" link/button is nice
>
> [FIXED] Please report back if you think otherwise.

Yes, it works now. The "Add Version" button is nice, too.
> > 1.4b) more importantly, I do not know what the responsibilities of a
> > "maintainer" are-- much less a "super maintainer".
>
> [FIXED/NOT FIXED] These informations are shown after clicking on the
> button. But we discussed the possibility to add a "?" sign near the
> button that will bring you to the related help page.

Yes, so they are (after you reassured me, I clicked the button). On the 
whole, I find the information good, but not very detailed or complete.

Here again, is the text:

---------------------------------------------------
This page is for submitting a request to become an application 
maintainer. An application maintainer is someone who runs the 
application regularly and who is willing to be active in reporting 
regressions with newer versions of Wine and to help other users run this 
application under Wine.

Being an application maintainer comes with responsibilities.

You are expected to:
# Keep the application comments clean, all stale data should be removed
# Be an active user of that application and version
# Keep up-to-date with all Wine releases, if there are regressions they 
should be reported to wine-devel

You will:
# Receive an email anytime a comment is posted or deleted for the 
application or the application information is modified

We ask that all maintainers explain why they want to be an application 
maintainer, why they think they will do a good job and a little about 
their experience with Wine. This is both to give you time to think about 
whether you really want to be an application maintainer and also for the 
appdb admins to identify people that are best suited for the job. Your 
request may be denied if there are already a handful of maintainers for 
this application or if you don't have the experience with Wine that is 
necessary to help other users out.

---------------------------------------------------


No problems with the text relating to how to maintain the appdb entry 
itself (keep the comments clean, etc), but "be an active user of that 
application and version", and "if there are regressions, they should be 
reported to Wine-devel"?

That says absolutely nothing to an "advanced user" such as myself, because

"Be an active user of that application and version." Fine, if I was the 
maintainer of Excel 2000, I should have Excel 2000 installed, or have 
attempted to install it (if that failed), and presumably I should write 
my experience doing that in the description.... but I'm just guessing 
that last part, because the requirements do not specify that. I am aware 
that the Mainatiner Rules are still under revision, but this is a bit 
too minimalist even for me :-) .

But here's my real problem: "Keep up-to-date with all Wine releases, if 
there are regressions they should be reported to wine-devel."

 From both my own sense of self and your encouragement, I am fairly 
certain I am capable of meeting this requirement--- *but I don't know how*!

I've hung around Wine-users and wine-devel long enough to know what 
regression testing is, and the very most basic level of what it involves 
(compiling CVS from the date of the "broken" release, then going 
backwards in CVS by day to find the date where the program works again, 
and then testing the patches committed on that day to find out which one 
breaks the program)-- but I have no practical knowledge of how to do any 
of the tasks required to perform this procedure (compile multiple 
versions of Wine on the same system, keep the configs separate, patch 
individually or revert a specific patch, etc).

I also do not know how to run the debug channels (assuming I installed a 
package that even has debug, since some packages do differentiate 
between "regular" and "nodebug") in order to create useful traceback 
logs, nor do I know how to choose which channels to run for any 
particular app or presenting issue ("all" creates giant logs from what I 
hear, most of which is not needed).

And lastly, I do not know how to submit the information to wine-devel so 
that it will be "proper", whatever that means; I know that "we" don't so 
much use Bugzilla for such things, but should there not be a 
wine-maintainers list or some such? It seems to me that just sending a 
regular email to the wine-devel list might well result in it either 
being considered "noise", or just getting lost in the mix.

In any case, I do feel that if such technical procedures are to be 
required of me, I should have access to some instructions on how to 
perform them before making the committment, so that I can adequately 
judge whether or not I can fulfill the responsibilities I am considering 
taking on.

EDIT: After writing this, I was reading mail on the wine-users list 
which mentioned a very similar problem (with something of a solution). 
In the "Re: [Wine]Invisible Menu Items in Wavelab [was: Problems 
starting Wavelab]" thread, Shayne O'Connor said:

"i haven't been able to find a good debugging
how-to for wine ... any suggestions?"

And Mark Knecht answered:

"Well, the Wine Userr's guide gives some good instructions but you need
to be pretty interested in learning before you delve in.

http://www.winehq.com/site/docs/wine-user/bugs

You can learn about debug channels in other parts of the same
document. It's interesting (sort of...) that all this capability is
there, but also frustrating as it feels like you have to get a
programming degree to even get started."

So at least I know where to look for the information, even if it looks 
like there's a good chance I won't understand it immediately. But we'll see.

This is not really a hopeful omen, though: one user indicating that the 
information on debugging is not easily found, and another indicating 
that, when found, the information is not easily understood. That kind of 
comment would be raising orange flags in my book (not the kind of thing 
I would want to hear my users/customers/people I'm supposed to be 
servicing saying about the instructions I'd provided), and so you may 
not be surprised if there's a "Real-world debugging docs" in your near 
future :-) .
> > which usually should not be run at lower versions if a patch (which
> > increases the version while repairing errors) is available. So there is 
> > in some ways no reason to maintain version "1.0" when no one should 
> > actually be *running* version 1.0 other than immediately after install,
>
> [WONT FIX] We cannot handle different behaviour for games and other
> categories. As you said it yourself there are cases when it makes sense
> to maintain separate version. If it makes no sense it's the duty of the
> app or version maintainer to rename his version (for example 1.x instead
> of haveing version 1.1 and version 1.2 if their behaviour is the same).

OK, that's a good alternative, but this should be mentioned in the 
Maintainer's Guidebook (if it isn't, haven't checked yet), since I 
wouldn't have known to do that if you hadn't just told me, and even had 
I thought of it, I wouldn't have known it was "OK to do".
> > 1.5) Comments are not being counted properly on the main overview page;
>
> [FIXED] I sent a patch for this as well. Thank you for reporting.

Thanks! It doesn't show yet either, but it's still cool :-) .

EDIT: It's fixed. Hoorah!
> > I'd really like to see forums or at least some kind of PM system
>
> [FIXED] Maintainers, Supermaintainers and Administrators  receive e-mail
> telling them an user made a comment in applications they maintain. If
> the comment is in reply to another comment the other people in the
> thread receive the email as well.

Yes, I saw that in the explanation of maintainer duties and privileges. 
This doesn't so much reassure the users, though (i.e., they will not 
know that their comment will be "mentioned" to the maintainer unless 
they have read the maintainer's information notes. A note to this effect 
that an "average" non-maintainer user will see as well might be useful.
> > Comments should also require the specification of the Wine version, the
> > distribution under which it is used, and the type of install
> > (self-compiled from source, distribution repository package, or Wine
> > distribution package; I have visions of a radio button) to be attached
> > to the comment, as new users often don't know to include this
> > information, but it's pretty hard to answer many questions without
> > having this information (so one has to ask, which wastes time and space).
>
> [NOT FIXED] Good idea. Might be worth implementing it.

I hope you do; imagining trying to field questions from users of a 
popular app such as HL2 (when that DX9 work is done) as the maintainer 
(not that I would ever volunteer to maintain HL2; I'm not a lunatic) and 
having to ask each and every posting user what these specs were, is the 
stuff of nightmares to me. Have a heart.
> > A Wine FAQ at the forefront of the appdb, or even linked to each
> > application's overview page might be nice, too
>
> [NOT FIXED] Good idea too. Might be worth implementing it in the help system.
> > Somebody's going to say I should write a FAQ myself and submit it as a
> > patch, aren't they? Yes, OK, but let me finish this mail first ;-) .
>
> Are you thinking to do that ?

Naturally I am. I wouldn't be a very good and responsible member of the 
FOSS community if I wasn't (and it's important to me to be a good and 
responsible member of the FOSS community). I haven't started the text 
yet, though (a bit short on time), and I have a technical problem in 
that I don't know how to format or submit the text when done (or at 
least drafted). I keep hearing "submit a patch", but I really don't know 
how to do that for non-code text or HTML (I don't know how to do it for 
code either, but I assume that if I could code, I *would* know).

But OK, now that I think of it, a couple of people have submitted 
documentation updates in the past several weeks; I'll check through my 
email and see how they did it.
> > 1.7) Descriptions are really not very useful, for several reasons.
>
> This should be fixed by maintainers.

Fair enough, but what about all the applications that do not have 
maintainers? They remain in disarray until someone steps up, if someone 
does? If the appdb needs a "spring cleaning", somebody has to make a 
start, and if there are no maintainers available to do so, does it then 
not become the responsibility of the admin (if there is such a beast)?
> > 1.8) (or, "On the road again") Off to the Baldur's Gate page, then... 
> > Back button to the subcategory (Games=>Role-Playing; thank heavens 
> > they're the same type), follow a new link to the Baldur's Gate page... 
> > I'm ranging far afield now, but in this case, that's OK. I have BG as 
> > well, but haven't installed it yet, so it's useful for me to look at the 
> > page anyway. Luckily. Because if I didn't have BG, I would now be 
> > traveling to the page of a completely different application in which I 
> > had no interest, with no assurance that what I find there will be of any 
> > use to me. In that case, I'd probaly be pretty bloody pissed off by now, 
> > given that I would have spent a fair amount of time trailing around the 
> > appdb without being so much as a single step closer to solving my actual 
> > problem with the original application, or even having it confirmed as a 
> > known problem, or receiving a clue that implied "user error", or 
> > anything whatsoever that would give me a troubleshooting or solution 
> > trail. http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?appId=157 if you'd like to 
> > come with me.
>
> Hmm not sur I understood you on this one.

What I'm saying here is that I started out looking for a solution for 
problems with installing an expansion for Icewind Dale on one page. Not 
only did I find no mention of my problem on the most relevant page, I 
also found no mention of the version evidencing the problem, after 
following five links to reach this page in the first place.

The only information I did find on that page that had any hope of 
providing a solution to my actual problem was that I should go to 
another application's page (the Baldur's Gate page, to which no link was 
provided), because that game was related (in an unspecified way as far 
as Wine is concerned) to Icewind Dale, and the solutions for (also 
unspecified) problems that Baldur's Gate users were having might also 
apply to Icewind Dale.

As it happens, because I also have Baldur's Gate, going to the Baldur's 
Gate page was useful in itself. However, let us presume I did *not* also 
have Baldur's Gate.

In this case, after following five links to reach the application page 
for Icewind Dale, where no solution to, or in fact mention of, my 
problem was found, I am being suggested to redirect (manually) to the 
application page for a completely different application (Baldur's Gate) 
than the one I wanted to know about. Because (in this hypothetical 
situation) I do not have Baldur's Gate, I have no interest in being on 
the Baldur's Gate page; I can't install what I don't have, thus I have 
no interest in knowing about the problems of this new application. 
However, I am nonetheless going to this 6th page, which I have no 
interest in or use for, simply because this game that I do not have is 
in some way related to the one I do have, and related in a way that 
means nothing to me as a normal user, since the relationship between 
Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate is not explained in the context of what 
we're dealing with (Wine). So what if IWD "uses a modified Baldur's Gate 
engine"? What does that mean to Wine, and why does that mean that the 
Baldur's Gate page might serve some purpose for me when I don't in fact 
have Baldur's Gate, but Icewind Dale?

I don't know, because I am an "average, non-technically-inclined" user 
who is just trying to get IWD:HoW to install, but nonetheless, I am 
expending further manual effort (since there is no direct link) to reach 
this new page that I have no interest in on its own account. I am doing 
this because this new page *may* contain information relating to my 
problem with the application I actually have-- but I won't know until I 
get there, and read the issues with this other application and see if 
any of them are the same as the ones I am having with the application I 
am actually using.

I recognize that the maintainer is responsible for making this somewhat 
more tidy, and there is atm no maintainer for this application to clean 
it up.

I was only pointing out that this particular entry (and possibly others; 
I can't check them all), was originally posted in the most circular and 
frankly infuriating manner possible. Windows migrators who are used to 
getting to some kind of useful information (or being told definitively 
that such useful information does not exist) in one or two clicks would 
have left the appdb long ago, especially since any such user is already 
angry and impatient after having attempted to install their application 
and failing, and this entire unneccesarily extended journey through the 
appdb is essentially a distraction from what they originally wanted to 
do (which was play Icewind Dale with the expansion pack). So the fact 
that this journey *is* unnecessarily extended (by sending me to vaguely 
related pages) is bad, because if one must be distracted, one strongly 
prefers that such distractions be as short as possible.

If the help exists, it should be presented as soon as possible. If the 
help does not exist, that should be said as soon as possible. But 
entries that dick you around (excuse my French) with vague hope ("the 
concrete help you're looking for may possibly be found in the far 
reaches of Timbuktu; travel there and perhaps the mystery shall be 
revealed unto you") should absolutely not be accepted as valid, and 
frankly do somewhat more harm than good to the appdb's reputation if 
left as they are until a maintainer steps up to fix them, because that 
was a really tedious runaround for no gain whatsoever (the Baldur's Gate 
page did not help me either).
> > 1.10) *this application is not listed in the appdb*
>
> You won't find every application and version in the appdb, nor every fix and problem. That's why you as an user can:
> - submit applications and versions
> - submit screenshots
> - submit how-tos, notes and comments
> - modify application and version description (maintainer)
> - etc.

Yes, that's true. But now we're coming to another important issue: 
Publicity. Who really knows about the appdb (meaning in terms of Wine 
users)?

You need the user community to step up, and in a (very) big way, 
participating both as users and maintainers, but how are they to even 
know that they should do so?

What would really help here is the equivalent of a "Grand Opening" bash, 
complete with marching band. Maybe I should see if I can submit 
something to OSNews (they seem to take all kinds of ...stuff... which is 
often consdidered much less useful, if the user comments after many 
articles are to be believed), or some similar missive. What I'm thinking 
of is widely-announced news that these resources are available, and 
making people aware that they can contribute to them (and should), no 
matter their level of expertise. Anybody can make a screenshot, and even 
that helps to make users having trouble with an app feel better (it 
*can* work; somebody got it running long enough to take a screenie; 
*there is hope*). And once someone has been able to help in even a small 
way-- often when they thought there was nothing they could contribute-- 
it can easily lead to more significant contributions. If they contribute 
a screenie, they might stay long enough to notice and read the debugging 
docs. And once they do that, they can try to help by submitting 
tracebacks for the stuff they can't get working, and help get it fixed.

But an acorn doesn't become a mighty oak if no one plants the seed. And 
of course, this will all fall flat if the appdb backend is not in 
place/stable, so maybe that should be confirmed before I get all excited 
:-D .
> You seem to know how to make many application run fine, why don't you
> share this knowlege with other appdb users ? You'll make the appdb more
> usefull for many and so more people will come and visit the appdb. Some
> of these new users you attracted might know more than you on
> applications you failed to make to run and might decide to contribute
> as you did. That way everybody will benefit.

Yes, of course I will do that; although Wine self-destructed on me two 
days ago, so I have to reinstall everything I did have running, but at 
least I can document it this time around.

But I don't agree that simply making the appdb more useful will 
encourage more people to use it-- many who have already written it off 
(and told others to do so), will need a big "New! Improved!!" sticker on 
the thing before they bother to come back and pitch in, and many likely 
don't even know of its existence in the first place.
> > Also not listed are the Baldur's Gate expansion, "Tales of the Sword
> > Coast", and the Baldur's Gate 2 expansion "Throne of Bhaal"
>
> Please submit thes new versions or application if you can.

Yes, just as soon as I get them installed.
> > Fine, I'm stopped cold with this issue, let's stop quickly by the
> > Icewind Dale 2 page ( http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?appId=1033 )
> > and see if there's help for me there; 
> > according to the description, I am supposed to be
> > able to install this, as long as I have an insanely old version of Wine
> > (the original description was penned by someone installing under
> > 20020904!), which I don't.
>
> The fact that someone reported that an application worked fine with
> Wine 20020904 doesn't mean it won't run with a newer version. On the
> opposite, regressions are not so common in Wine nowadays and if you or
> any user finds out that an application which was working with an older
> version of wine doesn't work anymore you can just send an e-mail to
> wine-devel to spot the regression. On the other hand if you find an old
> comment like this and can confirm that it still works using the current
> Wine version, you can tell others by adding a comment or modifying the
> description (please keep an history of reported Wine-version tested) if
> you are a maintainer.

Yes, got it-- fortunately, I do believe I have some older versions of 
Wine stored as backups from sometime last year (probably at least 6 
months ago), and I know that this used to work (as I still have 
savegames from playing under Wine last year). I might be able to narrow 
the "where did it break?" gap to within a couple of months (or closer), 
rather than the current gap of a year and a half, which would be 
something, at least.
> > 2.3) I'll try the workaround listed in the description, but...
> >
> > If the workaround doesn't work, I will probably dig up my backup of my
> > last installed and updated Win98-- which I cleverly saved all the
> > system files from before blowing it away, for just such an eventuality--
> > and "taint" my Wine installation by copying over the "real"
> > InstallShield files to the fake windows Common Files. This will probably
> > work-- it has in the past-- but I was really hoping to run 'pure' Wine
> > this time around. It has so been improving by leaps and bounds lately.
>
> If you take time to investigate this you might then report back in the
> appdb so that next user will have mor luck than you had in the first
> place.

Yes, of course-- I will probably maintain this application (and IWD2) if 
no one beats me to it (as if there's a line of eager supplicants before 
me!) before I get my "tracking system" in place.

The only thing that concerns me in terms of my "hack" being the 
"semi-official way to get it working" is that everybody may not have 
Win98 InstallShield files, I don't know if this will even work with the 
analagous files from 2000 or XP (I had Windows 2000 but didn't save the 
files, and I've never had or intend to have XP), and on the whole, I'd 
really rather see if I can track the issue down with the devs, or 
whether a new release will solve the problem itself-- I know some devs 
have been working on Installshield recently, but I would have thought 
that they were likely concerned with a newer iteration than the one 
here, which, to be honest, I don't even know why it should be broken, 
since it is fairly old as Installshield goes (Icewind Dale was released 
in 2000, the Heart of Winter expansion in 2001).
> > Let's see if things are any better in the Applications section. My issue
> > here is that I need to burn some CloneCD images.
> >
> > I have already tried to install both programs; CloneCD installed without
> > problems, but would not run, starting the debugger immediately with an
> > error in the 32-bit code-- I would like to find out why, and if there is
> > a solution. I then tried to install Nero 6.3, but clicking either the
> > Nero 6-only setup button or the "install suite" button on the autorun
> > dialog blinked and returned me to the autorun dialog-- I'd like a
> > solution, if I cannot get CloneCD to run (which I don't think I can).
>
> This kind of informations would be very usefull to other appdb users.

Yes, I suppose in the absence of concrete solutions, a confirmation of 
the problem is better than nothing, and I will provide that to the appdb 
within the week. But I would rather help work towards a solution, or be 
able to definitively pass along the information that the problems are 
(currently or permanently) insoluble, but that means going through those 
debugging docs.

However, it does also remind me of another question I had: I know we 
don't "care" about TG, and afaik, many of the Wine devs actually work 
for Codeweavers, but I also have a copy of Cedega and I can download the 
CXOffice demo (can't afford to buy even the Standard, sadly).

I have tried some 'limited triangulation'; for instance, under Wine 
Icewind Dale Heart of Winter bombed before the Installshield even 
extracted fully, but under Cedega got far enough to claim that IWD was 
not installed (so the installer exited gracefully). Now, I can guess why 
that happened (Registry issue; TG seems to put per-application entries 
in the program folder, which the expansion is not going to find, God 
only knows what the point of doing it that way is), besides which we 
don't care about TG in any case, and plus this is an Installshield 
issue, and their implementation is under a different licence than 
Wine's, so we can't look at it and see what's going on anyway. But if I 
downloaded the CX demo, I could try it there, too, and see what the 
differences are, giving me 3 points of triangulation (since "we" 
--meaning you devs-- do know the specifics of the Wine and CX code, if 
not the TG).

Would reporting (to the dev list, or maintainer's list, not the appdb) 
how the same application behaves differently under the variants be of 
any use in more speedily finding the likely location of a problem with 
that application in Wine?
> > 4.1) Hey, the first app I've looked at in this db with a "native
> > alternative" link. Nice, but I'm not reading the description anyway
> >
> > I'd be much more likely to see it then (if I didn't know about K3b already).
>
> [FIXED] It's now possible (again) to add applicatin specific links in the place you mention.

Yeah, and I like the great big can't-miss-it recursive link above the 
comments on the version page, too.
> Thanks again, I'd be happy to see you reporting back.
> Jonathan

Thanks again for caring :-) -- this is thus the 'reporting back'. I've 
pretty much got my work cut out for me in terms of 1) reinstalling Wine 
2) documenting the apps that I have working 3) posting comments to the 
appdb and taking on some maintainer's duties for at least a couple of 
them, but I would appreciate input on how to proceed with a) drumming up 
some publicity that you guys have really made some wonderful 
improvements and the disenchanted should drop by and pitch in, and b) 
providing viable information to the devs in order to tackle some of the 
problem applications I have tried to install or run.

I really appreciate this opportunity to contribute-- and in case I 
haven't said lately, you guys are doing a great job. Thank you all very 
much for Wine and all the related infrastructure.

Holly

[Jonathan Ernst]

Hi again ;-),

[...]
> -------------------------------------------------
> As an Application database member you enjoy some exclusive benefits like:
>
> * Ability to Vote on Favorite Applications
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> I am logged in, thus a member, thus I should be able to vote, if there 
> was a way to do so, but I don't see it.

[FIXED]
I send a patch that adds a link to voting help from the fron page.
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
> * Access to the Application Rating System. Rate the apps that 
> "Don't Suck"
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------

[FIXED]
Removed in the same patch as the rating system (with/without windows)
has been removed some time ago.
> OK, here we come to the crux of things. Visual FoxPro is the top voted 
> application? Then why is WinZip first on the Gold List?
> [NOT FIXED]

As said before the main page has to be rethought. The applications you
see are the top-10 most voted gold application and the top-10 most voted
silver application. The fact that this list is not so interesting is
because:

1) people don't know/knew how to vote or bother to do it
2) the Gold/Silver/Bronze rating system is quite new and maintainers of
top voted applications like FoxPro didn't rate their application yet
3) even in a perfect world where user would vote and application
maintainers would rate, this list still doesn't make too much sense as
an application once Gold has not too much interest to be voted for. We
could maybe reset the votes when an application goes gold (I'm not sure
about this).

Anyway we might choose to show other applciations (or no applications at
all from the front page).
Another idea that comes to my mind would be to show a random application
each time in a table.

[...]
> > > 1.4b) more importantly, I do not know what the responsibilities of a
> > > "maintainer" are-- much less a "super maintainer".
> >
> > [FIXED/NOT FIXED] These informations are shown after clicking on the
> > button. But we discussed the possibility to add a "?" sign near the
> > button that will bring you to the related help page.
>
> Yes, so they are (after you reassured me, I clicked the button). On the 
> whole, I find the information good, but not very detailed or complete.

[FIXED]
I sent another patch this morning. Mouse-overing on the button says
something like "click here to know more about maintainers". And when
arriving on the next page you have less details about being a maintainer
but you are provided with a link to the maintainers guidelines help page
wher you can know all about the duties of an application maintainer.

[...]
> OK, that's a good alternative, but this should be mentioned in the 
> Maintainer's Guidebook (if it isn't, haven't checked yet), since I 
> wouldn't have known to do that if you hadn't just told me, and even had 
> I thought of it, I wouldn't have known it was "OK to do".

[FIXED]
This has been added to the maintainers guidelines.
> Yes, I saw that in the explanation of maintainer duties and privileges. 
> This doesn't so much reassure the users, though (i.e., they will not 
> know that their comment will be "mentioned" to the maintainer unless 
> they have read the maintainer's information notes. A note to this effect 
> that an "average" non-maintainer user will see as well might be useful.

[FIXED]
When you send a comment you should (since some days) see a green message
saying "message sent to [LIST OF EMAIL ADDRESSES]" so that you know that
the maintainer and other people in the thread received your comment (but
you are right, you don't know it beforehand)


[...]
> > > A Wine FAQ at the forefront of the appdb, or even linked to each
> > > application's overview page might be nice, too

[FIXED] The Help and documentation link that is always visible on the
left menu contains faq and help topics.
> Naturally I am. I wouldn't be a very good and responsible member of the 
> FOSS community if I wasn't (and it's important to me to be a good and 
> responsible member of the FOSS community). I haven't started the text 
> yet, though (a bit short on time), and I have a technical problem in 
> that I don't know how to format or submit the text when done (or at 
> least drafted). I keep hearing "submit a patch", but I really don't know 
> how to do that for non-code text or HTML (I don't know how to do it for 
> code either, but I assume that if I could code, I *would* know).
>
> But OK, now that I think of it, a couple of people have submitted 
> documentation updates in the past several weeks; I'll check through my 
> email and see how they did it.

That's fairly easy.
1) First follow the instructions of this page about getting the latest
appdb from cvs: http://www.winehq.org/site/cvs (replace cvs -z 0
checkout wine with cvs -z 0 checkout appdb)
2) The modify the files on your local computer (you might want to test
it using apache and php on your local computer). For the faqs, the file
is /help/appdb_faq.help
3) Create a patch using cvs by following the informations here
http://www.winehq.org/site/sending_patches
4) Send the patch in an e-mail with a title like "[AppDB] improving FAQ"

If you need more help, don't hesitate to ask (me).
> > > 1.7) Descriptions are really not very useful, for several reasons.
> >
> > This should be fixed by maintainers.
>
> Fair enough, but what about all the applications that do not have 
> maintainers? They remain in disarray until someone steps up, if someone 
> does? If the appdb needs a "spring cleaning", somebody has to make a 
> start, and if there are no maintainers available to do so, does it then 
> not become the responsibility of the admin (if there is such a beast)?

Yes, me and other fellow administrators are cleaning a lot of entries
every day. But that's a huge amout of work. We'd prefer to see a huge
amount of maintainer to step out.


[...]
> Yes, that's true. But now we're coming to another important issue: 
> Publicity. Who really knows about the appdb (meaning in terms of Wine 
> users)?
>
> You need the user community to step up, and in a (very) big way, 
> participating both as users and maintainers, but how are they to even 
> know that they should do so?
>
> What would really help here is the equivalent of a "Grand Opening" bash, 
> complete with marching band. Maybe I should see if I can submit 
> something to OSNews (they seem to take all kinds of ...stuff... which is 
> often consdidered much less useful, if the user comments after many 
> articles are to be believed), or some similar missive. What I'm thinking 
> of is widely-announced news that these resources are available, and 
> making people aware that they can contribute to them (and should), no

That would be great. However I'm not the one who can say if the appdb is
ready for such massive publicity. Maybe someone else will give you more
input on this.

[...]
> Yes, of course I will do that; although Wine self-destructed on me two 
> days ago, so I have to reinstall everything I did have running, but at 
> least I can document it this time around.

great !

[...]



Thanks,

Jonathan

[Tom]

Holly Bostick wrote:
> Naturally I am. I wouldn't be a very good and responsible member of 
> the FOSS community if I wasn't (and it's important to me to be a good 
> and responsible member of the FOSS community). I haven't started the 
> text yet, though (a bit short on time), and I have a technical problem 
> in that I don't know how to format or submit the text when done (or at 
> least drafted). I keep hearing "submit a patch", but I really don't 
> know how to do that for non-code text or HTML (I don't know how to do 
> it for code either, but I assume that if I could code, I *would* know).
>
> But OK, now that I think of it, a couple of people have submitted 
> documentation updates in the past several weeks; I'll check through my 
> email and see how they did it.

Hello Holly,

If you want we can meet on irc and ill do what I can to help you get 
started.
You may want to read over a couple links first:

http://www.winehq.org/site/cvs
http://www.winehq.org/site/sending_patches
> Thanks again for caring :-) -- this is thus the 'reporting back'. I've 
> pretty much got my work cut out for me in terms of 1) reinstalling 
> Wine 2) documenting the apps that I have working 3) posting comments 
> to the appdb and taking on some maintainer's duties for at least a 
> couple of them, but I would appreciate input on how to proceed with a) 
> drumming up some publicity that you guys have really made some 
> wonderful improvements and the disenchanted should drop by and pitch 
> in, and b) providing viable information to the devs in order to tackle 
> some of the problem applications I have tried to install or run.
>
> I really appreciate this opportunity to contribute-- and in case I 
> haven't said lately, you guys are doing a great job. Thank you all 
> very much for Wine and all the related infrastructure.

I would just like to say "Thank You" for all the great constructive 
criticism that you have given!
This kind of feedback is priceless to say the least, it will help 
everyone here to better understand just how
a new user looks at this project. 

Tom
> Holly

Holly Bostick wrote:
> Jonathan Ernst wrote:
> [snip]
> > Le lundi 07 février 2005 à 01:16 +0100, Holly Bostick a écrit :
> > > I had to go through 4 links just to get to the main application page.
> > > First, the sidebar link from the main site to the appdb front page. This
> >
> > [FIXED] I sent a patch to replace "Applications" with "Applications
> > database" in www.winehq.org
>
> Thanks! It's not showing yet, but I'm sure it will soon, and it will 
> make the menu choice somewhat more understandable to many users, I think.
>
> EDIT: Now it's there. It does clarify the entry nicely.
> > > front page is useless to me (and imo, fairly useless overall),
> >
> > [NOT FIXED] We have to discuss it and make changes to this first page.
> > Paint and other applications are here because peole voted for it (i.e.
> > the list is generated automatically).
>
> Fair enough....but when were these applications actually voted for (is 
> the list outdated), and how do you actually vote, anyway? I understand 
> that on previous visits to the appdb, I wasn't logged in, so was unable 
> to vote (does that make sense, btw? Shades of Transgaming...), but now I 
> am logged in and I don't see any method on the front page to actually 
> vote for an application-- nor, in fact, what voting for an application 
> actually accomplishes.
>
> The applications listed as Gold and Silver are apps which meet both of 
> the following conditions (I'm working this out as I type) 1) they work 
> out of the box or with minor modifications (neither of which is a 
> votable condition, the condition either exists or doesn't) and 2) they 
> have been voted as a "Favorite" by users.
>
> Fine (if that's the case), but we care because why, exactly? If WinZip 
> is the favorite "works perfectly out of the box" application among users 
> (whenever these users may have actually voted, since I can't seem to 
> vote *today*, but we'll get to that), well, what does it get us to have 
> that on the front page?
>
> Leaving aside the fact that there is no real reason to even run WinZip 
> under Wine (given that zip is provided by default with every 
> distribution, so *.zip files are already handled, WinZip doesn't handle 
> *.rar files or *.ace files, iirc, and in any case, both unrar and unace 
> are available by selection under Linux as well, so that's no excuse 
> either), I don't particularly care that everybody else finds that 
> application their favorite. Furthermore, I'm either not at the appdb at 
> all, or if I am, I am not looking for WinZip, *because it runs 
> perfectly*! Thus the only information I'm getting is that it runs 
> perfectly (which I already knew if I've tried to install and run it; how 
> likely is it that I've come to the appdb to "shop" for base utilities 
> like WinZip to see if they run before proceeding?), and that the 
> proportion of the userbase that cares enough to register and vote loves 
> it. Yeah, and? What "big picture" am I missing here?

Well the big picture is that the more apps that run "out of the box" the better 
Wine is. Apps that can be downloaded are available to anyone so if a regression 
occurs in one of these apps it is easier to debug than one that a developer does 
not have access to. It is even better for Wine if the program has source code 
available. So having entrys for and (hopfully) maintainers for programs like 
WinZip or Mozilla benifit Wine in a very real sense.

Also for newcomers to linux knowing that programs that they are familiar with 
run eases the transition to what can be a very intimidating environment. If 
being able to run winzip instead of the native alternative makes someones life 
easier that IMHO is a good thing.

One last thing is that having programs that run on the front page is our way of 
blowing our own horn.
> As for my ability or inability to vote: Here I am on the front page of 
> the appdb, which shows the results of registered user votes, right?
>
> Here's the text:
>
> -------------------------------
> Welcome
>
> This is the Wine Application Database. From here you get info on 
> application compatibility with Wine. For developers, you can get 
> information on the APIs used in an application.
> ------------------------------------
>
> Oooh, I can? Never noticed that.... sounds like it would be useful 
> information even for a non-coding maintainer, since I would then have a 
> better idea what debug channels I'd want to use in case of trouble. Must 
> explore later.

I guess I never *really* read that. I think that what the appdb is today is not 
the original conception. From what I can decipher form other clues there was an 
idea that the appdb would contain all the windows calls that a program made. 
while this seems like good idea perhaps it was not a practical one.

The problem of collecting all the api's a program calls is do-able ( 
WINEDEBUG='all' ). However what do we do with that trace afterwords. Manually 
entering each call int the appdb is out of the question. I am certain that we 
could parse the file and somehow to get it into the database. However, how 
usefull would that data be for either the end user or the developer?

[snip]
> I mention this only because at least there I can find a (very tenuous) 
> logical chain of incentive to vote. I don't see what motivation my 
> voting gives to the Wine devs (who's going to "force" them to stop 
> working on whatever they're interested in and work on Uru: Ages Beyond 
> Myst?), and because of that, I don't see what is the incentive for me to 
> vote, or in fact what is the purpose of this entire voting business. Is 
> it possibly an implementation of an idea that was obsoleted by later 
> changes in the project's direction? If not, it needs to be made much 
> clearer what function it serves within the "project production line".

You are probably correct here. Certainly voting for an application version makes 
more sense to me. However voting for any app makes no "real" difference to the 
developers at this time.

The voting system is an indication of how popular (important?) a program is. I 
do think it really good at what it is supposed to do.

I think that a system that indicates how popular a program is can be usefull. 
certainly you would like to have the database users be able to indicate that 
they would like a program to run. I would like to propose the following changes.

- Voting for app version ( not app family).
- only one vote per person per version.
- more total votes, say 10-20 instead of 3.

[snip]
> Yes, that's true. But now we're coming to another important issue: 
> Publicity. Who really knows about the appdb (meaning in terms of Wine 
> users)?
>
> You need the user community to step up, and in a (very) big way, 
> participating both as users and maintainers, but how are they to even 
> know that they should do so?
>
> What would really help here is the equivalent of a "Grand Opening" bash, 
> complete with marching band. Maybe I should see if I can submit 
> something to OSNews (they seem to take all kinds of ...stuff... which is 
> often consdidered much less useful, if the user comments after many 
> articles are to be believed), or some similar missive. What I'm thinking 
> of is widely-announced news that these resources are available, and 
> making people aware that they can contribute to them (and should), no 
> matter their level of expertise. Anybody can make a screenshot, and even 
> that helps to make users having trouble with an app feel better (it 
> *can* work; somebody got it running long enough to take a screenie; 
> *there is hope*). And once someone has been able to help in even a small 
> way-- often when they thought there was nothing they could contribute-- 
> it can easily lead to more significant contributions. If they contribute 
> a screenie, they might stay long enough to notice and read the debugging 
> docs. And once they do that, they can try to help by submitting 
> tracebacks for the stuff they can't get working, and help get it fixed.
>
> But an acorn doesn't become a mighty oak if no one plants the seed. And 
> of course, this will all fall flat if the appdb backend is not in 
> place/stable, so maybe that should be confirmed before I get all excited 
> :-D .

I think that we have a ways to go before we have a Grand (re)opening. There are 
stability problems and missing features that we need to address before we want 
to get slashdotted ;^). We are getting a steady increase in the number of 
comments and maintainers that so I think that the word is getting out anyways. I 
don't think that I want to make a big annoncement and have users going away 
dissapointed.

There are a couple of big features that need to be dealt with.

- Add monitoring system for users to monitor changes to an app without becoming 
a maintainer.

- Revamp the integration with bugzilla so that a bug can belong to an app 
version instead of the app family. Also it should be possible to link a bug to 
more than on app.

- revamp the voting system.

- Make the documentation mor usefull.

--

Tony Lambregts

[Tom]

tony_lambregts(a)telusplanet.net wrote:
> You are probably correct here. Certainly voting for an application 
> version makes more sense to me. However voting for any app makes no 
> "real" difference to the developers at this time.
>
> The voting system is an indication of how popular (important?) a 
> program is. I do think it really good at what it is supposed to do.
>
> I think that a system that indicates how popular a program is can be 
> usefull. certainly you would like to have the database users be able 
> to indicate that they would like a program to run. I would like to 
> propose the following changes.
>
> - Voting for app version ( not app family).
> - only one vote per person per version.
> - more total votes, say 10-20 instead of 3.

I would like to propose.........

- one person one vote
- vote for app family not version
- clear the current votes and start fresh...

Tom

[Holly Bostick]

tony_lambregts(a)telusplanet.net wrote:
> Holly Bostick wrote:
> > Leaving aside the fact that there is no real reason to even run WinZip 
> > under Wine (given that zip is provided by default with every 
> > distribution, so *.zip files are already handled, WinZip doesn't 
> > handle *.rar files or *.ace files, iirc, and in any case, both unrar 
> > and unace are available by selection under Linux as well, so that's no 
> > excuse either), I don't particularly care that everybody else finds 
> > that application their favorite. Furthermore, I'm either not at the 
> > appdb at all, or if I am, I am not looking for WinZip, *because it 
> > runs perfectly*! Thus the only information I'm getting is that it runs 
> > perfectly (which I already knew if I've tried to install and run it; 
> > how likely is it that I've come to the appdb to "shop" for base 
> > utilities like WinZip to see if they run before proceeding?), and that 
> > the proportion of the userbase that cares enough to register and vote 
> > loves it. Yeah, and? What "big picture" am I missing here?
>
> Well the big picture is that the more apps that run "out of the box" the 
> better Wine is. Apps that can be downloaded are available to anyone so 
> if a regression occurs in one of these apps it is easier to debug than 
> one that a developer does not have access to. It is even better for Wine 
> if the program has source code available. So having entrys for and 
> (hopfully) maintainers for programs like WinZip or Mozilla benifit Wine 
> in a very real sense.

That explains why these particular programs should be listed in the 
appdb-- although they perhaps should be in a special location, 'for 
internal use' (not really that exact phrase, that's a sort of 
placeholder statement for what I mean), rather than displayed for users, 
as if users should be using them. This does not, however, explain WinZip 
taking up 1/6th of my screen with a big old "Gold List" entry and 
screenie when I enter the appdb via the front door.
> Also for newcomers to linux knowing that programs that they are familiar 
> with run eases the transition to what can be a very intimidating 
> environment. If being able to run winzip instead of the native 
> alternative makes someones life easier that IMHO is a good thing.

Yes, I get that; I run PSP under Wine, because I just can't deal with 
The Gimp and my graphics manipulation needs are not so great that it's 
worth it to me to learn The Gimp. But this is *WinZip* we're talking 
about here. It's much harder to explicitly run WinZip (even if it works 
perfectly) than it is to double-click the *.zip file in your file 
manager-- which would most likely be a Windows migrator's first action 
on such a file. Double-clicking the *.zip file will result in the file 
either opening directly in the file manager if Konqueror (KDE being most 
every distro's fave "newbie" default desktop), or Ark or file-roller 
(for we GNOME lovers) automatically opening the file, since *.zip is a 
default known association for these programs. I suppose it's possible, 
but I find it hard to believe, that your "average" user is going to 
completely assume that they cannot open a *.zip file without any type of 
attempt whatsoever to actually do so (in which case the file would 
already be open), then go to all the trouble of finding, downloading and 
installing both Wine (which they probably don't even know about, if they 
are that new) and WinZip, then running WinZip to open the file.

That's not only a lot of work, but it's not really the Windows User's 
Way-- Windows users tend to "just click" things (and then scream bloody 
murder if nothing happens, or evil things happen; the tendency to "just 
click"-- whether or not the user knows what will happen when they do so, 
or whether it makes logical sense for the individual to click the 
object-- is so prevalent that it formed the entire infection mechanism 
of the "I love you" virus, after all).
> One last thing is that having programs that run on the front page is our 
> way of blowing our own horn.

Well, all of it is blowing your own horn... which is fine, you should do 
more of it.

But, in this case, apps like WinZip or Mozilla, both of which 
specifically are more likely to be run in native versions by new users 
than via Wine-- WinZip we've already been through, and of course Moz is 
more than likely installed by default already-- are the applications 
being used to do it. Displaying them as your "star achievements" is much 
more of a wan 'blaat' than a resounding fanfare.

If you've accomplished getting a difficult, unique, and irreplaceable 
program running so well that it should be on the Gold list, by all 
means, make the notification big. I'll be the last to complain. 
Quicktime running under Wine is something that everybody wants/needs to 
know about for all kinds of reasons. IE installing/running under Wine is 
a big deal, even for those of us who don't use it as a browser. Even 
Grandma may well code up a simple web page and want to use IE to test 
the display and compatibility, and of course lots of unrelated programs 
require IE before they will install.

Placing applications such as those in a position of prominence not only 
gives users useful information and reassures them, but also reveals that 
you have done something *hard* to both the knowledgeable and the naive.

Placing WinZip there says... nothing much at all.
> > -------------------------------
> > Welcome
> >
> > This is the Wine Application Database. From here you get info on 
> > application compatibility with Wine. For developers, you can get 
> > information on the APIs used in an application.
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Oooh, I can? Never noticed that.... sounds like it would be useful 
> > information even for a non-coding maintainer, since I would then have 
> > a better idea what debug channels I'd want to use in case of trouble. 
> > Must explore later.
>
> I guess I never *really* read that. I think that what the appdb is today 
> is not the original conception. From what I can decipher form other 
> clues there was an idea that the appdb would contain all the windows 
> calls that a program made. while this seems like good idea perhaps it 
> was not a practical one.

I suspected as much. But it would be pretty doggone cool if it was the 
case or became the case.
> The problem of collecting all the api's a program calls is do-able ( 
> WINEDEBUG='all' ). However what do we do with that trace afterwords. 
> Manually entering each call int the appdb is out of the question. I am 
> certain that we could parse the file and somehow to get it into the 
> database. However, how usefull would that data be for either the end 
> user or the developer?

Naturally, developers have to answer for themselves, and for pure users 
it would be useless, but for those in-between (people learning to 
develop, or attempting to migrate their developement skills from Windows 
to Wine) it might be a useful reference, and it seems to me (in my 
ignorance) that correlating that information with Bugzilla might really 
cut down searching time as to where a bug is located-- if several 
programs which seem unrelated evidence the same or a similar bug to each 
other, and we look at this database and see that they all use the same 
or similar API for their different purposes, wouldn't that locate the 
general area of likely failure of the Wine code much faster than the way 
that it's done now?
> [snip]
> > I mention this only because at least there I can find a (very tenuous) 
> > logical chain of incentive to vote. I don't see what motivation my 
> > voting gives to the Wine devs (who's going to "force" them to stop 
> > working on whatever they're interested in and work on Uru: Ages Beyond 
> > Myst?), and because of that, I don't see what is the incentive for me 
> > to vote, or in fact what is the purpose of this entire voting 
> > business. Is it possibly an implementation of an idea that was 
> > obsoleted by later changes in the project's direction? If not, it 
> > needs to be made much clearer what function it serves within the 
> > "project production line".
>
> You are probably correct here. Certainly voting for an application 
> version makes more sense to me. However voting for any app makes no 
> "real" difference to the developers at this time.
>
> The voting system is an indication of how popular (important?) a program 
> is. I do think it really good at what it is supposed to do.

I'll take your word for that, but I guess what I'm asking is "How 
relevant is the question of how 'important' an application is 
(considered to be, considered to be by users, who-- no disrespect 
intended-- don't know squat about squat most of the time) to a) the 
goals of, b) the mechanism/standard operating procedure of, and/or c) 
the philosophy/mandate of the Wine project?"

If the question of how important an application is judged to be is not 
in fact relevant because 1) the mechanism by which Wine is developed 
does not lend itself to "focused development" (stop what you're doing 
and fix X); or because 2) the goal of the Wine project is to provide a 
fully-functioning implementation of the Windows API, not specifically to 
get X program working; or because 3) we aren't bloody TG, then why are 
we making such a big deal about collecting and publicizing this judgement?

If the question remains relevant, then why it is relevant should be much 
clearer, because I don't get it. Naturally, feel free to inform me if 
the reason I don't get it is that I'm just dim... but don't forget, if 
I'm dim, there's a million more out there like me.
> I think that a system that indicates how popular a program is can be 
> usefull. certainly you would like to have the database users be able to 
> indicate that they would like a program to run. I would like to propose 
> the following changes.
>
> - Voting for app version ( not app family).

Makes sense and saves time, in case version 1 of an app works, but 
version 2 does not, the devs don't have to go hunting through the family 
to see which one needs fixing.
> - only one vote per person per version.

Understandable, but still doesn't give me an option to increase the vote 
count on a low-rated app. Could we maybe have a time limit on this 
restriction, so that I could vote for the app (version) again in a month 
or three? That way you'd at least know that even though I might be the 
only one who wants this program running, I am at least dedicated enough 
to keep coming back to vote for it, month after month.... maybe somebody 
will take pity on me ;-) .
> - more total votes, say 10-20 instead of 3.

Well, 20 might be too many, but 3 does seem to be too few. Although, if 
the voting is really going to affect the dev team's workload in a 
concrete way, you probably don't want to give the users *too* many votes....
> [snip]
> > Yes, that's true. But now we're coming to another important issue: 
> > Publicity. Who really knows about the appdb (meaning in terms of Wine 
> > users)?
>
> I think that we have a ways to go before we have a Grand (re)opening. 
> There are stability problems and missing features that we need to 
> address before we want to get slashdotted ;^). We are getting a steady 
> increase in the number of comments and maintainers that so I think that 
> the word is getting out anyways. I don't think that I want to make a big 
> annoncement and have users going away dissapointed.
>
> There are a couple of big features that need to be dealt with.
>
> - Add monitoring system for users to monitor changes to an app without 
> becoming a maintainer.

I didn't even dare to dream of that. But $DEITY, would it be cool....!
> - Revamp the integration with bugzilla so that a bug can belong to an 
> app version instead of the app family. Also it should be possible to 
> link a bug to more than on app.

Wouldn't this require knowing what APIs each app uses (see previous)? 
How otherwise would the bugs be known to be linked (unless the 
connection was extremely obvious, such as a failure in Installshield, or 
Quicktime or whatever)?

By the way, if the parser you mentioned above was available, couldn't 
one of the first duties of a maintainer be to generate the 
WINEDEBUG='all' for their app and submit it to the database to be parsed?
> - revamp the voting system.

... or give it a reason to be... ( :-) ).
> - Make the documentation mor usefull.

Well, we all want that. But it can be done incrementally if necessary-- 
meaning, from what I can tell, most of the useful information is already 
available, but people can't find it. So while we're all beavering away 
at improving its readability and usefulness (which takes time), what can 
be done today is to make the path to even this less-perfectly useful 
information more accessible (which Jonathan has been making a start on 
by adjusting the links to it).

When more people can find the current information to read it, we will 
hopefully receive more reports on what they didn't understand, so that 
the documentation can be adjusted accordingly, more effectively, and 
more efficently. I mean, we already say that Wine is a work in progress; 
people shouldn't be freaked out on that account. Waiting until such time 
as the documentation is 'more useful' to encourage users to come by and 
use it is like cleaning up before the maid arrives. We're all in this 
together, and leaving the documents somewhat untidy gives less-technical 
users an opportunity to contribute that might be unavailable otherwise.


Holly

[Tom]

Holly Bostick wrote:
> Well, all of it is blowing your own horn... which is fine, you should 
> do more of it.
>
> But, in this case, apps like WinZip or Mozilla, both of which 
> specifically are more likely to be run in native versions by new users 
> than via Wine-- WinZip we've already been through, and of course Moz 
> is more than likely installed by default already-- are the 
> applications being used to do it. Displaying them as your "star 
> achievements" is much more of a wan 'blaat' than a resounding fanfare.
>
> If you've accomplished getting a difficult, unique, and irreplaceable 
> program running so well that it should be on the Gold list, by all 
> means, make the notification big. I'll be the last to complain. 
> Quicktime running under Wine is something that everybody wants/needs 
> to know about for all kinds of reasons. IE installing/running under 
> Wine is a big deal, even for those of us who don't use it as a 
> browser. Even Grandma may well code up a simple web page and want to 
> use IE to test the display and compatibility, and of course lots of 
> unrelated programs require IE before they will install.
>
> Placing applications such as those in a position of prominence not 
> only gives users useful information and reassures them, but also 
> reveals that you have done something *hard* to both the knowledgeable 
> and the naive.
>
> Placing WinZip there says... nothing much at all.

Well I would send a patch and some screen shots with some "Toatly Kewl 
Apps & Games" running via wine
but there is only one small problem.. I use native dlls some of the time 
and for a app/game to be listed
it cant use any native dlls...... It has to run 100% out of the box.
> - revamp the voting system.
>
> ... or give it a reason to be... ( :-) ).

There is no reason for it to be.......... It will only serve to let the 
programmers know what
people would like to see working in the future. You dont ask someone who 
is working for
free and giving there work away to work on what you want.. thats not the 
way FOSS works...
People work on what they want to, when they want to.


You have four options to get a app/game to work......

- Fix it yourself
- beg and plead (which will only piss people off)
- wait for it to get fixed (may be tommorow may be 10 years)
- pay someone to fix it

Tom

[Jonathan Ernst]

Le vendredi 11 février 2005 à 16:26 -0500, Tom a écrit :
> Holly Bostick wrote:
> > Placing applications such as those in a position of prominence not 
> > only gives users useful information and reassures them, but also 
> > reveals that you have done something *hard* to both the knowledgeable 
> > and the naive.
> >
> > Placing WinZip there says... nothing much at all.
>
> Well I would send a patch and some screen shots with some "Toatly Kewl 
> Apps & Games" running via wine
> but there is only one small problem.. I use native dlls some of the time 
> and for a app/game to be listed
> it cant use any native dlls...... It has to run 100% out of the box.

Well, there is no need for a patch. The "problem" here is appdb users
behaviour ;-). If Winzip is listed on the frontpage it's because people
voted for it. Just vote for another couple of Gold apps you like, it'll
remove Winzip from the front page. Now the fact that you vote for an
already Gold app is questionable as well.
-- 
Jonathan Ernst <Jonathan(a)ErnstFamily.ch>

[Rainer Haake]

Am Montag, 14. Februar 2005 07:45 schrieb Jonathan Ernst:
> Well, there is no need for a patch. The "problem" here is appdb users
> behaviour ;-). If Winzip is listed on the frontpage it's because people
> voted for it. Just vote for another couple of Gold apps you like, it'll
> remove Winzip from the front page. Now the fact that you vote for an
> already Gold app is questionable as well.

I think the ranking of Apps should be separated from voting...
You vote for the Apps you want to be fixed, so you shouldn't be able to vote 
for Gold apps, because there is nothing to fix with them.

In my opinion Appdb users should be able to select which apps they use with 
Wine and the ranking of Gold apps should be based on most used apps.

So we get the most prominent and useful apps on the frontpage, because i don't 
think anybody will say the actively use WinZip with Wine, but many will 
select Word or Notes or games...

Just my 2 €-cents

Rainer Haake

[Andreas Mohr]

Hi,

On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 10:11:53AM -0700, tony_lambregts(a)telusplanet.net wrote:
> Holly Bostick wrote:
> > -------------------------------
> > Welcome
> >
> > This is the Wine Application Database. From here you get info on 
> > application compatibility with Wine. For developers, you can get 
> > information on the APIs used in an application.
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Oooh, I can? Never noticed that.... sounds like it would be useful 
> > information even for a non-coding maintainer, since I would then have a 
> > better idea what debug channels I'd want to use in case of trouble. Must 
> > explore later.
>
> I guess I never *really* read that. I think that what the appdb is today is 
> not the original conception. From what I can decipher form other clues 
> there was an idea that the appdb would contain all the windows calls that a 
> program made. while this seems like good idea perhaps it was not a 
> practical one.
> I thought that this was decided to be the job of an "apidb" a long time ago?
> (5 years ago, that is)

But OTOH it's probably more useful as an addon to the appdb indeed,
since we have all application management structures in one central place
already, so it makes sense to keep it together...

Greetings from abnormally bad-weathered China,

Andreas Mohr

[Jonathan Ernst]

> A Wine FAQ at the forefront of the appdb, or even linked to each
> application's overview page might be nice, too, for more general issues
> like the above comment-- an explanation of basic procedures such as
> exporting/importing registry entries, what common errors mean, like the
> "Warning: The specified Windows directory L"C:\\Windows" is not
> accessible" error and what to do about it, why not to get all freaked
> out by seeing "fixme"s, and simple statements like the fact that some 
> programs will run fine with wine /path/to/app.exe, but some will fail 
> that way with very scary looking errors, but will run fine if one first 
> cds to /path/to/ and then runs wine app.exe. This kind of thing is often
> something new Wine users don't know, but is a very simple way to
> eliminate possible vectors of error before going to any mailing list or
> forum with problems, and may eliminate the need for a user to ask for
> help at all (as the program works when started in the alternate manner).

[FIXED] I sent a patch that add and updates the content of the current
FAQs and help topics. You find a link to this documentation on the
right menu. Currently you have both Help & Support and  Documentation ,
but the patch I sent removes one of these two links and adds a link
called Help & Documentation which contains FAQ, explanation on how to
run Windows application under wine (you might want to add some entries
here) and also informatons about what a maintainer/supermaintainer is
and what he is expected to do.

Best regards,
Jonathan