How many times does this have to be repeated? Severity levels are NOT determined by how much a user wants the app to work. They're just not, deal with it.
I have never said it is, either. I said it think it should be determined by how severe the user thinks it is(if devs then cares about it is another matter). You seem to be convinced that all users are morons hyping their own stuff.
If a set of devs decide to work on getting a particular app working that's up to them, and we've already been over this too.
Obviously. I can't remember opposing that?
Who said you had?
Why writing that we've had already been over it, then?!?? .....etc.... "you can't see the picture" .....etc.... "Not to you, no. Only what you think is right." .....etc.... Huh? This doesn't lead anywhere, you constantly misread me and I don't seem to understand what you are getting at. For some reason, I seem to annoy the hell out if you. I really don't get it, it is not my intention. Do I have some kind of attitude I need to be aware of? I am not a native English speaker. Anyway, it has been obvious from the start that you and I can't communicate. Therefore, I am backing out(hands in air) of this discussion before...uh.. after it has gotten out of hand. //Nicklas
Nicklas Börjesson wrote:
How many times does this have to be repeated? Severity levels are NOT determined by how much a user wants the app to work. They're just not, deal with it.
I have never said it is, either. I said it think it should be determined by how severe the user thinks it is(if devs then cares about it is another matter).
And you've already been told it shouldn't, and this has been explained to you. <snip waffle> Junk.
How many times does this have to be repeated? Severity levels are NOT determined by how much a user wants the app to work. They're just not, deal with it.
I have never said it is, either. I said it think it should be determined by how severe the user thinks it is(if devs then cares about it is another matter).
And you've already been told it shouldn't, and this has been explained to you.
<snip waffle>
Junk.
Explained to me?? ...this is just incredible. Regardless of what I have said, you have repeated almost the same things, it's like you haven't been reading my posts! Leave me alone, I want to talk to someone else. //Nicklas
2009/5/3 Nicklas Börjesson <Nicklas.Borjesson(a)ws.se>:
Explained to me?? ...this is just incredible. Regardless of what I have said, you have repeated almost the same things, it's like you haven't been reading my posts!
Leave me alone, I want to talk to someone else.
No offense, but you should probably take the lack of (repeated) responses as a sign. You've been answered several times by several people, and the answer has been (mostly) the same. Bugzilla is a developer's tool, with bugs reported by users. Severity levels are there for how they affect Wine *overall*, not the user experience. Such things belong in the AppDB/etc., not bugzilla. Again, no offense, but you're relatively unknown to the Wine project. Looking for your name in the git log shows no records. The only place I recognize your name from is this thread and from bugzilla bugs. Trying to tell all of Wine's developers that the way they've been handling bug reports has been wrong for years is a bit pompous. Granted, I'm not saying it can't be improved. Surely it can. But, as has been said before, Bugzilla is there for developers, not user's. Lastly, as I said before, I encourage you to subscribe to wine-bugs/patches/devel/users and keep up with everything going on in wine. See how many bug reports we have, what they describe, and the quality of them. It helps to have experience seeing these bug reports before arbitrarily saying how the system should be changed. The horse has been beaten way past the point of Jell-O. Can we put this to a rest, please? -- -Austin
No offense, but you should probably take the lack of (repeated) responses as a sign.
I did leave it alone. That post was a reaction to what I considered as bullying. The answers has almost never been to anything I have said, but rather to things I haven't said. //Nicklas PS. No, I am new to the wine project. But there is a world outside of it. DS.
2009/5/8 Nicklas Börjesson <Nicklas.Borjesson(a)ws.se>:
2009/5/8 Austin English <austinenglish(a)gmail.com>:
No offense, but you should probably take the lack of (repeated) responses as a sign.
I did leave it alone. That post was a reaction to what I considered as bullying. The answers has almost never been to anything I have said, but rather to things I haven't said.
You've been repeatedly informed why your proposed changes to the severity levels are a bad idea by many people on this list. Let's take an analogy: Imagine you're a fresh, young car tester at Ford. Using an open-door policy to contact an executive, you promise a new, efficient design to replace the current combustion engines completely. You present your idea at a board meeting. The board is not receptive to your proposed changes. The engineering department doesn't believe it will solve any problems, and in fact that it will reduce fuel efficiency and increase pollution. The other board members point out that you're very new to the company, and that you have no experience in engine design or engineering and you are only present in the company as a tester. In this scenario, are you being bullied by the board members?
//Nicklas PS. No, I am new to the wine project. But there is a world outside of it. DS.
You'd have some credibility if you researched what the Wine project does with bugzilla, how it currently works, etc. rather than just assuming it's the wrong way to do it. 2009/5/8 Nicklas Börjesson <Nicklas.Borjesson(a)ws.se>:
Hi all, it seems that some of my earlier mails(and some other) has been re-mailed to the list. I don't think that our(here, at my workplace) servers has done this, rather, it feels like the mailing list server did it. So understand that I am not bombarding the list. I see that many are replying to some really old posts.
Still not your problem? Still feeling bullied, but this time by the mailing list server? I don't believe your earlier mains have been resent. I certainly haven't received them.
2009/5/9 Ben Klein <shacklein(a)gmail.com>:
Still not your problem? Still feeling bullied, but this time by the mailing list server?
I don't believe your earlier mains have been resent. I certainly haven't received them.
My Gmail account tells me that all those mails are like 4 days old. This has happened to me before. I thought it was a problem with Gmail, but it may as well be the wine mailing list server, or something else entirely. Remco
2009/5/9 Remco <remco47(a)gmail.com>:
2009/5/9 Ben Klein <shacklein(a)gmail.com>:
Still not your problem? Still feeling bullied, but this time by the mailing list server?
I don't believe your earlier mains have been resent. I certainly haven't received them.
My Gmail account tells me that all those mails are like 4 days old. This has happened to me before. I thought it was a problem with Gmail, but it may as well be the wine mailing list server, or something else entirely.
When you're not subscribed to the list, your posts have to go through moderation. Sometimes that can take a while.
2009/5/9 Nicklas Börjesson <Nicklas.Borjesson(a)ws.se>:
When you're not subscribed to the list, your posts have to go through moderation. Sometimes that can take a while.
I do subscribe to the list(and did, from the beginning). Or maybe subscription is more than registering to the mailing list?
You also need to follow the confirmation link, of course, but if you receive mails from the list that should be ok. The only other obvious thing I can think of at the moment is to make sure you're sending mails with the same address you're receiving them on.
make sure you're sending mails with the same address you're receiving them on.
That would be it, thanks! I feel pretty silly, I had registered to the mailing list as nicklas_at_ws.se, but my sender is my long adress, nicklas.borjesson_at_ws.se. It did not use to be that way, I forgot that it had changed. I'll change my adress and hope that solves it. Sorry if I bothered you all. //Nicklas
On Sunday 10 May 2009 15:59:30 Ken Sharp wrote: Ken, some food for thought here.
Henri Verbeet wrote:
When you're not subscribed to the list, your posts have to go through moderation. Sometimes that can take a while.
So the idiot isn't even subscribed to this group, but is spamming it anyway?
Don't feed the trolls.
How exactly is this post not an ad hominem attack, commonly used by trolls to start flame wars? I seriously dislike the tone this mailing list keeps taking recently. This kind of poisonous behaviour is bad for Wine in general. Please try to be civil. An engineer should be able to voice technical criticism without insulting people. If you feel the need to insult people for whatever reason, don't do it on the mailing list. Kai -- Kai Blin WorldForge developer http://www.worldforge.org/ Wine developer http://wiki.winehq.org/KaiBlin Samba team member http://www.samba.org/samba/team/ -- Will code for cotton.
On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 5:17 AM, Henri Verbeet <hverbeet(a)gmail.com> wrote:
2009/5/11 Kai Blin <kai.blin(a)gmail.com>:
I seriously dislike the tone this mailing list keeps taking recently. In case it means anything to anyone, I agree.
+1, exactly why I muted the conversation. -- -Austin
+1, exactly why I muted the conversation.
Not implying that I would have "won" the conversation or anything (I obviously didn't), but I did not like the way my arguments were met at all.
From almost the first response, the tone was quite condescending and no one even considered if my ideas had any actual merit at all before slamming them completely. Also, because of this, the conversation was needlessly prolonged, to the obvious annoyance of all.
This also applied to perfectly valid comments i made in the AppDB. I haven't experienced such behaviour in an open source project for years. And I have, believe it or not, both participated in and, yes, managed a few. I would say that no matter how annoying I may have been to this thread, this is extremely counterproductive. In communities like this, where most people are involved for other reasons than money, it is even more important to treat others with respect. I pride myself with always trying to keep a professional attitude in my communications. Not only with customers or management, but also my peers. I would like some of the participants of this thread to consider the damage they do to the wine project when they don't. Creating technology isn't all about technology. //Nicklas
+1, exactly why I muted the conversation.
Not implying that I would have "won" the conversation or anything (I obviously didn't), but I did not like the way my arguments were met at all.
From almost the first response, the tone was quite condescending and no one even considered if my ideas had any actual merit at all before slamming them completely. Also, because of this, the conversation was needlessly prolonged, to the obvious annoyance of all.
This also applied to perfectly valid comments i made in the AppDB. I haven't experienced such behaviour in an open source project for years. And I have, believe it or not, both participated in and, yes, managed a few. I would say that no matter how annoying I may have been to this thread, this is extremely counterproductive. In communities like this, where most people are involved for other reasons than money, it is even more important to treat others with respect. I pride myself with always trying to keep a professional attitude in my communications. Not only with customers or management, but also my peers. I would like some of the participants of this thread to consider the damage they do to the wine project when they don't. Creating technology isn't all about technology. //Nicklas PS. WOW! Reposting since a fantastic bug in outlook(loves it) totally screwed up the subject in my earlier post. DS.
2009/5/11 Nicklas Börjesson <Nicklas.Borjesson(a)ws.se>:
From almost the first response, the tone was quite condescending
No.
and no one even considered if my ideas had any actual merit at all before slamming them completely.
Yes they did. You ignored their just criticism.
Also, because of this, the conversation was needlessly prolonged, to the obvious annoyance of all.
And the fact that you refuse to acknowledge critical responses.
This also applied to perfectly valid comments i made in the AppDB.
For example ...?
I haven't experienced such behaviour in an open source project for years. And I have, believe it or not, both participated in and, yes, managed a few.
Ever managed a project as big as Wine? In terms of number of developers, or sheer lines of code?
I would say that no matter how annoying I may have been to this thread, this is extremely counterproductive. In communities like this, where most people are involved for other reasons than money, it is even more important to treat others with respect.
Agreed. However, you have shown little respect for the people on this thread who have been critical of your suggestions. You believe you are right - there's nothing wrong with that - but your suggestion is violently different from what is currently being done - which is a system set up by the Wine developers for the Wine developers, and is attuned to what the Wine developers want and need.
I pride myself with always trying to keep a professional attitude in my communications.
If professionalism means never giving up, even when it has been *explained* to you why your idea won't work in practice, then you succeeded.
Not only with customers or management, but also my peers. I would like some of the participants of this thread to consider the damage they do to the wine project when they don't. Creating technology isn't all about technology.
One thread on the mailing list doesn't make the whole project (though I do see your point). However, it cuts both ways. You complain that no one has paid attention to your fantastically brilliant idea (when they have, they just don't like it); perhaps your idea isn't as brilliant as you think? You have to treat valid critical response with the same respect as valid positive response.
From almost the first response, the tone was quite condescending
No.
Here we go. I'll try again. Yes.
If professionalism means never giving up, even when it has been *explained* to you why your idea won't work in practice, then you succeeded.
In the end someone did explain, yes. But it took about 10 posts until anyone started to actually read what I had written and stop reading in other things into what it said. Like constantly stating that "photoshop isn't the all only application" and the like, when that had nothing to do with what my point was. I don't give up. Especially when I have time to spare. Which I did.
perhaps your idea isn't as brilliant as you think?
I did not think of my idea as brilliant. In fact, I have never even remotely tried to convey that. I just thougt of it as an idea. This is exactly the kind of attitude that leads nowhere. Why even write that sentence? Did we get anywhere?
You have to treat valid critical response with the same respect as valid positive response.
I did, even if it didn't adress what I said. Although I did comment when someone persisted with strawman arguments like "should we let users in control of the project" even though I had never said anything like that.
Ever managed a project as big as Wine? In terms of number of developers, or sheer lines of code?
Have you? Regarding sheer lines of code, the main application (a portfolio/fund management system) I am working have roughly the same amount of code that wine does. Or at least around 90%. The database currently has 327 tables and customer databases range from 1-100 gigabyte in size. With regards to complexity, wine has nothing on it, at least as far as I have seen so far. So I'd say I know a thing or two about large projects. You seem to think that the wine project is some kind of huge beheamoth of a project. In fact, most fairly common business applications are just as large(especially in later years when so much code is auto-generated). One or two million LOCs is not huge. Big, but not huge. Especially, I know that when a project grows, softer values tend to become more important. And that users, handled correctly, can be more of a resource, than a liability. //Nicklas
On Mon, 11 May 2009, Kai Blin wrote: [...]
If you feel the need to insult people for whatever reason, don't do it on the mailing list.
Better yet, they should do it to the mirror<g>. -- Francois Gouget <fgouget(a)free.fr> http://fgouget.free.fr/ Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he'll be a mile away - and barefoot.
2009/5/7 Austin English <austinenglish(a)gmail.com>
2009/5/3 Nicklas Börjesson <Nicklas.Borjesson(a)ws.se>:
Explained to me?? ...this is just incredible. Regardless of what I have said, you have repeated almost the same things, it's like you haven't been reading my posts!
Leave me alone, I want to talk to someone else.
No offense, but you should probably take the lack of (repeated) responses as a sign.
You've been answered several times by several people, and the answer has been (mostly) the same.
Bugzilla is a developer's tool, with bugs reported by users. Severity levels are there for how they affect Wine *overall*, not the user experience. Such things belong in the AppDB/etc., not bugzilla.
Having it in a field in bugzilla with a list of options is potentially a lot better than expecting users to enter the information in the description without being prompted. I'd suggest: Application can't start. (default) Something I need to do is broken, but enough of the app still works to be useful for other tasks (e.g. a word processor with broken equation editor). The app is totally useless (e.g. a word processor with broken Open & Save dialogs). Part of the app is broken but I can work around the problems. along with instructions to file installer bugs under "Installer for XYZ" because installers have the same potential for partial breakage (can't select install directory vs shows negative free space and refuses to install at all) This was already suggested, but the options addressed multiple orthogonal issues (how usable is the app vs what kind of breakage) which someone pointed out would be even more confusing. Keep the what broke in the description where users will naturally report it, and provide only an impact (hey that might not be a bad name for the field -- "impact") level in a new dropdown list.
2009/5/8 richardvoigt(a)gmail.com <richardvoigt(a)gmail.com>:
2009/5/7 Austin English <austinenglish(a)gmail.com>
2009/5/3 Nicklas Börjesson <Nicklas.Borjesson(a)ws.se>:
Explained to me?? ...this is just incredible. Regardless of what I have said, you have repeated almost the same things, it's like you haven't been reading my posts!
Or that you're not reading other people's posts, like every time they mention the phrase "developers, not users", you assume the entire post is irrelevant to the discussion.
Leave me alone, I want to talk to someone else.
I've said it before, you're one man against the world in this argument.
Bugzilla is a developer's tool, with bugs reported by users. Severity levels are there for how they affect Wine *overall*, not the user experience. Such things belong in the AppDB/etc., not bugzilla.
Having it in a field in bugzilla with a list of options is potentially a lot better than expecting users to enter the information in the description without being prompted. I'd suggest: Application can't start. (default) Something I need to do is broken, but enough of the app still works to be useful for other tasks (e.g. a word processor with broken equation editor). The app is totally useless (e.g. a word processor with broken Open & Save dialogs). Part of the app is broken but I can work around the problems.
This is not very useful to the people who matter on bugzilla (developers). "Something is broken" is too close to "The app is useless" (at best these would be Minor and Normal bugs, at worst both Normal) and "Part of the app is broken" is exactly the same as "Something is broken" except a workaround is present (this is guaranteed to be Minor). Users need to provide much more detail to their bug descriptions than this. Adding a field that describes the problem in a vague way will encourage users to minimise their descriptions (BAD). Imagine: "I already said that something is broken, why are you asking for more information? FIX IT! It's really important! I need it to live!" If any improvement can be made to the bug submission system, it would be to encourage users to provide *more* descriptive detail (especially for steps taken to reproduce the bug) in their initial report. Any suggestion for adding or modifying a field to indicate "Impact on user experience" will not affect that.
along with instructions to file installer bugs under "Installer for XYZ" because installers have the same potential for partial breakage (can't select install directory vs shows negative free space and refuses to install at all) This was already suggested, but the options addressed multiple orthogonal issues (how usable is the app vs what kind of breakage) which someone pointed out would be even more confusing. Keep the what broke in the description where users will naturally report it, and provide only an impact (hey that might not be a bad name for the field -- "impact") level in a new dropdown list.
It's been said before: bugzilla is not the place for this type of thing. The "impact on user experience" is not a factor in determining bug priorities, nor will it ever be. Remember, WineHQ is not a company, Wine is not proprietary, so Wine does not have to behave like a commercial product. If someone is willing to work on a bug, then patches will get submitted and reviewed. If the patches are well-formed and functional, and don't cause obvious regressions, then the patches are committed and the bug fixed. That's how collaborative open-source development works, especially in such massive projects as Wine.
participants (9)
-
Austin English -
Ben Klein -
Francois Gouget -
Henri Verbeet -
Kai Blin -
Ken Sharp -
Nicklas Börjesson -
Remco -
richardvoigt＠gmail.com