w9x testbot state?
Hi, what happened to the w9x test bots? I'd like them to run some kernel32 tests. Testbot says "offline". Thank you for your help, Jörg Höhle
Hi, Stefan Dösinger wrote:
Testbot says "offline". I think we killed w9x testing a few months ago
That's not exactly right. While test.winehq.org no more performs daily w9x tests for Wine, the w9x machines have been available on testbot.winehq when you select "show all VMs" -- and they are still listed now. I know, because I used them not too long ago. Marvin tells me that on 2011-04-28, W98SE was functioning. Regards, Jörg Höhle
On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 10:09, <Joerg-Cyril.Hoehle(a)t-systems.com> wrote:
Hi,
Stefan Dösinger wrote:
Testbot says "offline". I think we killed w9x testing a few months ago
That's not exactly right. While test.winehq.org no more performs daily w9x tests for Wine, the w9x machines have been available on testbot.winehq when you select "show all VMs" -- and they are still listed now.
I know, because I used them not too long ago. Marvin tells me that on 2011-04-28, W98SE was functioning.
Those aren't available anymore (retired) it seems: VM name Type of VM 32 or 64 bits Current status Description W95 retired 32 offline Windows 95 W95B retired 32 offline Windows 95 OSR2 W98 retired 32 offline Windows 98 W98SE retired 32 offline Windows 98 Second Edition
On 8/3/11 7:10 AM, Maarten Lankhorst wrote:
On 08/01/2011 07:12 PM, Joerg-Cyril.Hoehle(a)t-systems.com wrote:
Hi,
what happened to the w9x test bots? I'd like them to run some kernel32 tests. Testbot says "offline".
They were hosted at Gé's house. Testbot can no longer reach them.
Are there plans to 'revive' them? If not, if I am provided with a test file, I do have a Windows98SE disk here that I could run tests against. This would be a manual process and would take time. James
James McKenzie <jjmckenzie51(a)gmail.com> wrote:
what happened to the w9x test bots? I'd like them to run some kernel32 tests. Testbot says "offline".
They were hosted at Gé's house. Testbot can no longer reach them.
Are there plans to 'revive' them?
There is no point in that, it's been discussed many times already. -- Dmitry.
On 8/7/11 1:01 AM, Dmitry Timoshkov wrote:
James McKenzie<jjmckenzie51(a)gmail.com> wrote:
what happened to the w9x test bots? I'd like them to run some kernel32 tests. Testbot says "offline".
They were hosted at Gé's house. Testbot can no longer reach them.
Are there plans to 'revive' them? There is no point in that, it's been discussed many times already.
There are functions that vary between Windows9x/ME and WindowsNT and their ilk. People do use Wine to support Windows9x/ME programs that are not supported, anymore, by current Windows. When we make changes to functionality, it is a 'good thing' to make sure we don't break support for those folks, right? It is not necessary, anymore, to do 'compatibility' tests against 9x as most functions from that time period should be fully implemented. That is my 'read' of what Alexandre said here about six months ago. James
James McKenzie <jjmckenzie51(a)gmail.com> wrote:
There are functions that vary between Windows9x/ME and WindowsNT and their ilk. People do use Wine to support Windows9x/ME programs that are not supported, anymore, by current Windows. When we make changes to functionality, it is a 'good thing' to make sure we don't break support for those folks, right?
Supporting applications from a win9x era has nothing to do with running Wine tests on win9x platforms. -- Dmitry.
On 8/7/11 6:55 AM, Dmitry Timoshkov wrote:
James McKenzie<jjmckenzie51(a)gmail.com> wrote:
There are functions that vary between Windows9x/ME and WindowsNT and their ilk. People do use Wine to support Windows9x/ME programs that are not supported, anymore, by current Windows. When we make changes to functionality, it is a 'good thing' to make sure we don't break support for those folks, right? Supporting applications from a win9x era has nothing to do with running Wine tests on win9x platforms.
Dmitry: That is correct. The two are distinctly different and no further reports of running compliance tests against Windows9x should be recorded. However, insuring what functionality we do have in Wine for running antiquated Windows9x/ME programs should remain, if possible, IMHO. However, there was a purpose of running Wine code against the testbots as well I thought. I've seen many patches run against them to add functionality and to insure nothing broke, not just running the old win9x tests. Or am I incorrect in their usage. As stated: They are off-line for now. And Maarten stated that they would be restored, if the images could be found. Otherwise, they are off-line and will remain that way for a long time. James
James McKenzie <jjmckenzie51(a)gmail.com> wrote:
That is correct. The two are distinctly different and no further reports of running compliance tests against Windows9x should be recorded. However, insuring what functionality we do have in Wine for running antiquated Windows9x/ME programs should remain, if possible, IMHO.
First you may need to find such a misbehaving application, debug it, and articulate exactly what win9x behavour it depends upon, instead of speculating about running Wine tests on win9x platforms. -- Dmitry.
Hey James, On 08/07/2011 05:12 AM, James McKenzie wrote:
On 8/3/11 7:10 AM, Maarten Lankhorst wrote:
On 08/01/2011 07:12 PM, Joerg-Cyril.Hoehle(a)t-systems.com wrote:
Hi,
what happened to the w9x test bots? I'd like them to run some kernel32 tests. Testbot says "offline".
They were hosted at Gé's house. Testbot can no longer reach them.
Are there plans to 'revive' them?
If not, if I am provided with a test file, I do have a Windows98SE disk here that I could run tests against. This would be a manual process and would take time. Winetestbot is in only urgent maintainance mode until all non-winetestbot related services are moved off. If I can find the windows vms themselves, I'll bring them back to live, otherwise you'll have to wait until the servers are maintained properly again. :)
~Maarten
Hi,
what happened to the w9x test bots? I'd like them to run some kernel32 tests. Testbot says "offline". They were hosted at Gé's house. Testbot can no longer reach them. Ouch.
Dmitry Timoshkov wrote:
Are there plans to 'revive' them?
There is no point in that, it's been discussed many times already.
I believe there's a common misconception here. - Writing code that passes tests on w9x machines is not anymore a prerequisite for submitting/accepting patches. Save your time for other work. - Eliminating some broken(/*w9x*/) from the tests is a good thing because removing any instance of broken() is a good thing as I've argued several times, because it can hide bugs. - If you write e.g. d3dx12 or .net, you need not care about w9x. However, if like me, you spend a lot of time with APIs designed and used in the nineties, e.g. MCI, then it makes a hell of a lot of sense to write tests that pass on w9x to discover how the API behaved at the time where the app was written. What was the behavior that the developers observed back then? What could they have used for testing their app? I don't care much about how these old APIs behave in w7 when I can read on the back of some covers "doesn't work in XP, needs w98" or in forums "must set compatibility mode XYZ to work in XP" but no single test in Wine tells us what the compatibility modes in XP actually do! Because of that, I fear that further patches from me to the MCI might be delayed for lack of validation. I was quite pleased when the W98SE machine would run the audio tests. That's why working w9x testbots are a valuable resource. Maarten, I really hope testbot w9x manages to work once again. Regards, Jörg Höhle
Joerg-Cyril.Hoehle(a)t-systems.com wrote:
However, if like me, you spend a lot of time with APIs designed and used in the nineties, e.g. MCI, then it makes a hell of a lot of sense to write tests that pass on w9x to discover how the API behaved at the time where the app was written.
MCI didn't go away, it still exists, so can write the tests and run them on NT based systems and see what you need. The only need to run the tests under win9x is when you have an application which doesn't work under NT, and you need to make it work under Wine. In any case you need to debug the app first, and not blindly rely on some mystic hidden win9x behaviour which may not even exist. -- Dmitry.
Dmitry Timoshkov: If I understand the philosophy of Wine correctly, it is to provide an alternative to the Microsoft implementation of the platform. The criteria for success is that applications written to run on the current Microsoft platform can run on Wine. To that end mandatory support for the Windows 9X and other older versions was removed from the patch acceptance test procedure. The test procedures were also to be simplified when a change touched on one of the special cases where the special provisions for older versions was part of a test. However, certain things were not to be done: The ABILITY to test under older versions is to be retained. Such testing is no longer required, but the tests are supposed to be available on request. Simply removing support for older versions in tests is not sufficient reason for changing a test. Something else about the test has to change before there is justification of stripping out special case code. Gratuitous removal of support for older versions in the actual Wine code is not acceptable. There has to be a reason for breaking support of older applications. We are NOT trying to support Microsoft's effort to force their customers to upgrade to new versions of Microsoft's products. In fact, my understanding is that Wine is intended to provide an 'as good as or better' alternative to Microsoft. Efforts to improve Wine's ability to support current applications is very important, but supporting older applications is also useful. Max
Hello Max, I'm pretty sure you are trolling but with Alexandre on vacation it is pretty quiet anyway, so I'll feed you... On 08/08/2011 07:36 PM, max wrote:
If I understand the philosophy of Wine correctly, it is to provide an alternative to the Microsoft implementation of the platform. The criteria for success is that applications written to run on the current Microsoft platform can run on Wine. To Wine cares only about running the application written for the Windows platform. It does *NOT* try to fully implement any particular Windows version.
that end mandatory support for the Windows 9X and other older versions was removed from the patch acceptance test procedure. The test procedures were also to be simplified when a change touched on one of the special cases where the special provisions for older versions was part of a test.
However, certain things were not to be done:
The ABILITY to test under older versions is to be retained. Such testing is no longer required, but the tests are supposed to be available on request. You didn't pay attention to wine-devel. The Win9x VMs were running on a machine at Ge's house and Ge passed away a few months ago. As soon as the WTB finds a new home the Win9x VMs will be enabled.
Simply removing support for older versions in tests is not sufficient reason for changing a test. Something else about the test has to change before there is justification of stripping out special case code. Again you didn't pay attention. It was removing broken() and test skips for Win9x which didn't run in any way form or shape on Win9x. And adding those skips and broken was basically a Sisyphus work, it kept Paul Vriens busy without ever catching up. If you feel like it you can still cut and paste the tests out you are particularly interested in.
Gratuitous removal of support for older versions in the actual Wine code is not acceptable. There has to be a reason for breaking support of older applications. I'm not sure in which Universe you live but in this one Wine cares about Win16 and even the venerable DOS applications. Thus it seems kinda unlikely that Wine removes support for Win9x. Go check the git commits.
We are NOT trying to support Microsoft's effort to force their customers to upgrade to new versions of Microsoft's products. In fact, my understanding is that Wine is intended to provide an 'as good as or better' alternative to Microsoft. Efforts to improve Wine's ability to support current applications is very important, but supporting older applications is also useful. Exactly. You too can help with this effort! Test those old applications and submit patches.
bye michael
participants (8)
-
Dmitry Timoshkov -
Frédéric Delanoy -
James McKenzie -
Joerg-Cyril.Hoehle＠t-systems.com -
Maarten Lankhorst -
max -
Michael Stefaniuc -
Stefan Dösinger