re: Are we the reason Apple isn't helping us?
Vitaliy wrote:
Can you show me exactly where did I yell at him? Or where I wasn't polite enough
I think it was http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=29922#c14 where you wrote "Would bugzilla admin please remove / ban this user? Jeremy, you've been told by the only person who commits stuff to Wine - Everything working fine, there is nothing to fix. Period, conversation over. If you reopen this bug it will be an indication to bad your user record." There ought to be some wiggle room granted people who work at important neighboring projects who are unable for whatever reason to follow Wine's usual conventions; at the very least, we shouldn't actively drive them away like that. - Dan
Sorry about the really long email, but I didn't want to flood your inboxes with 5 separate responses. On Mar 11, 2012, at 12:15 AM, Jerome Leclanche wrote:
On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 4:33 AM, Charles Davis <cdavis(a)mymail.mines.edu> wrote:
Hi,
An Apple developer recently contacted me directly about the Wine64 radar (number 9269783). What's interesting about his response, however, is that he put in an aside to berate us for our etiquette. I am convinced that at least this developer sees us as rude, hateful creatures now, and he cited a particular bug (29922) that he filed and even offered to fix as an example. Gee, I wonder why that might be? (Hint: Look at the "To:" field.)
In your defense, I realize that Vitaliy's behavior is not representative of Wine developers as a whole, and that Jeremy's behavior wasn't exactly golden, either. I also realize that there really is no build breakage resulting from the bug, because we don't include any Objective-C headers. He was convinced that there could have been breakage, however. You--AJ, I'm talking to you in particular--did not adequately explain to him why this didn't break the build. Instead, you--Vitaliy in particular--practically yelled at him--for trying to help! By this point, he's likely told his colleagues at Apple about his experience. With guys like Vitaliy developing Wine, is it any wonder Apple doesn't want to help? Are we, the developers, the real reason Apple isn't contributing? For that matter, are we the real reason more people *in general* aren't contributing?
At the very least, we should be more welcoming of help, even from Apple. We need it. Maybe not to fix trivial non-bugs like 29922, but to make Wine a better alternative to Windows--on Mac, Linux, or anywhere. But as long as people like Vitaliy are yelling at potential contributors, we won't get much help beyond what we've got at CodeWeavers.
Just my two bits.
Chip
There are a thousand bugs where I would agree with you, but Jeremy's second post was "I don't plan on submitting patches to you frequently enough to make it worth my time to read your policies and subscribe to your lists.". That's not "trying to help", it's self-entitled behaviour. True. But my original point--that Vitaliy was unnecessarily rude to our guest--stands.
I do think there is unnecessary rudeness floating around bugzilla in general though. It sometimes feel like some people's motto is to close as many bugs invalid as they can, without even giving the user a chance to explain themselves better. I've especially seen some non-native English speakers filing very weird bugs and being yelled at "read this massive rules page" when they could barely understand five words. Now I realise some people's time is limited, unpaid, etc. But that's just it -- no one (to my knowledge) is forced to take care of those users. I'm personally doing bugzilla maintenance because it's fun for me to see a project evolve; if I see an user that annoys me personally, I just leave it and I know someone else (eg. Austin) will take care of them... if not, silence is better than rudeness. I agree wholeheartedly.
On Mar 11, 2012, at 9:01 AM, Henri Verbeet wrote:
While I'm inclined to agree on the general point that some of the replies on bugzilla aren't the most tactful or effective way to get a point across, I don't think it has a whole lot to do with Apple helping Wine or not. I know that at CodeWeavers we've filed a fair amount of bugs in the Apple bug tracker, often with detailed descriptions and test cases to reproduce them. Most of the time those just get (very politely, true) ignored. My impression is that the reasons are mostly political, but that's of course something that's hard to substantiate. I suspect you are right. In fact, I know that when Steve Jobs came back to Apple, one of the first things he did was to convince Microsoft to invest money in them. So, I don't know if that's true today, but I know that at one point Microsoft owned a sizable chunk of Apple. If it is still true, I suspect that is the major reason Apple chooses not to help more.
On Mar 11, 2012, at 11:50 AM, Ralph Little wrote:
The Wine developers know nothing about me and my experience. I have attempted to demonstrate that, although I lack much time, I am prepared to put some effort into helping where I can in my small way. There are many like me. In have tried to be cordial and respectful on wine-devel. In return I have had nothing but courtesy, helpful assistance and general goodwill in answer. I know that most Wine developers are generally nice and helpful. I even explained that to Jeremy in a PM. The problem is that a few sour developers go and ruin it for everyone.
There is a right way of entering into these things and a wrong way. The Wine crew, as far as I know, know nothing of this supposed Apple developer.
He has not demonstrated his experience or trustworthyness or knowledge of the Wine product to any level. I would say otherwise. He is the maintainer of the Wine port in MacPorts (http://www.macports.org/), an Apple-sanctioned project to bring various FOSS projects to Mac OS X. He is also the only X11 developer working on Mac support, and, since Wine is such an important use case for XQuartz (X11 on Mac OS), he runs the Wine test suite against XQuartz often. Jeremy expects that as a stranger the Wine team should take his word at face value that he submitted a needed fix and that it sufficiently corrected the problem without doing even the *minimum* of effort to convince them. The problem was that he couldn't--we couldn't. Let's just say if we did tell you, and you're not ADC members, we'd get in a lot of trouble with Apple. You can guess from that what this concerns. I have read the bug issue in question, and from the outset, he was disrespectful and downright combative and dismissive of all of the Wine teams procedures. Despite that, the responses on the bug tracker from the Wine team where measured and non-escalatory. A slightly different approach would have yielded a substantially different result. A humble request for assistance in knowing the proper channel and aid in getting the change properly submitted would, I feel, have had a far greater acceptance of what he was after. That wasn't my understanding. Yes, he was combative, but so was Vitaliy. Let me recap this for you according to my understanding of what happened:
Jeremy: Here's a problem, and a patch to fix it. Wine developers: Follow the rules or you'll get no sympathy. Jeremy: I don't have time for that! Wine developers:We don't see any problem. Tell us more. Jeremy: I can't. Vitaliy: Then we can't take your patch, even if it is right. Jeremy: You'll have to take my patch on faith. Vitaliy: Go to hell! Screw you! I'm banning you! Jeremy: Screw you, too! I'm outta here! If you ask me, both Jeremy and Vitaliy were very childish and rude about this whole misunderstanding. I agree that Jeremy not taking the time to read the rules was wrong and selfish, but Vitaliy didn't exactly help by letting his short temper get the best of him.
I agree that sometimes the responses on the bug tracker can be curt to the point of rudeness, but mostly that is down to the impersonal nature of the medium.
Jeremy obviously thought that the change was important enough that he should take the time to submit it in the first place. A little bit of natural humility and expressing a more willing sentiment would have gone a long way to helping his cause.
True, just as a little humility on our part would go a long way towards patching up relations with potential contributors. On Mar 11, 2012, at 10:06 AM, Vitaliy Margolen wrote:
First of all that me address your subject: I really doubt Apple will ever help Wine, regardless what happens on our bugzilla. I beg to disagree. Apple will help if it's in their best interest--which I suspect it clearly isn't right now (see above). Apple have pretty specific predisposition to open source and they sure won't change it because of one unsuccessful bug report. True. When everyone, including AJ telling the person "what you reporting is not an error from our POV, unless you can come up with a broken application, a test program/code, or any other proof on a contrary we deem such bugs invalid." This was the rule of our bugzilla for years. I hope this does not require yet another explanation why. It doesn't. The problem was that he couldn't explain it (see above).
And one last thing, all I did is to stop an endless reopening of that bug. If you think there is/was another way to make Jeremy understand why that bug was invalid lets hear it. "Invalid" doesn't mean "not present". He already understands why it's invalid, but that doesn't change the fact that he can't publicly tell you why the bug exists.
On Mar 11, 2012, at 12:52 PM, Dan Kegel wrote:
Vitaliy wrote:
Can you show me exactly where did I yell at him? Or where I wasn't polite enough
I think it was http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=29922#c14 where you wrote "Would bugzilla admin please remove / ban this user? Jeremy, you've been told by the only person who commits stuff to Wine - Everything working fine, there is nothing to fix. Period, conversation over. If you reopen this bug it will be an indication to bad your user record."
There ought to be some wiggle room granted people who work at important neighboring projects who are unable for whatever reason to follow Wine's usual conventions; at the very least, we shouldn't actively drive them away like that. +1
Chip
On 03/11/2012 03:10 PM, Charles Davis wrote:
Sorry about the really long email, but I didn't want to flood your inboxes with 5 separate responses.
On Mar 11, 2012, at 12:15 AM, Jerome Leclanche wrote:
There are a thousand bugs where I would agree with you, but Jeremy's second post was "I don't plan on submitting patches to you frequently enough to make it worth my time to read your policies and subscribe to your lists.". That's not "trying to help", it's self-entitled behaviour. True. But my original point--that Vitaliy was unnecessarily rude to our guest--stands. You mean showing person the door when that person clearly demonstrated he does not, will not, and doesn't even have a desire to play by our rules? Every single time this ends up being a waste of time for everyone involved. And this is yet another proof of that.
Jeremy: Here's a problem, and a patch to fix it. Wine developers: Follow the rules or you'll get no sympathy. Jeremy: I don't have time for that! Wine developers:We don't see any problem. Tell us more. Jeremy: I can't. Vitaliy: Then we can't take your patch, even if it is right. Jeremy: You'll have to take my patch on faith. Vitaliy: Go to hell! Screw you! I'm banning you! Jeremy: Screw you, too! I'm outta here! You better re-read the entire bug report again. What you said is offensive towards me and I request your apology!
The topic is over, at least for me. You are behaving exactly the same way Jeremy did disregarding everyone and everything because _you_ perceive something differently then everyone else here. And making conclusions without reading the entire conversation or being familiar enough with bugzilla. Vitaliy.
On 12 March 2012 09:01, Vitaliy Margolen <wine-devel(a)kievinfo.com> wrote:
On 03/11/2012 03:10 PM, Charles Davis wrote:
Sorry about the really long email, but I didn't want to flood your inboxes with 5 separate responses.
On Mar 11, 2012, at 12:15 AM, Jerome Leclanche wrote:
There are a thousand bugs where I would agree with you, but Jeremy's second post was "I don't plan on submitting patches to you frequently enough to make it worth my time to read your policies and subscribe to your lists.". That's not "trying to help", it's self-entitled behaviour.
True. But my original point--that Vitaliy was unnecessarily rude to our guest--stands.
You mean showing person the door when that person clearly demonstrated he does not, will not, and doesn't even have a desire to play by our rules? Every single time this ends up being a waste of time for everyone involved. And this is yet another proof of that.
I have to agree with Vitaliy on this. Mr Huddleston was incredibly rude and arrogant, not to mention lazy. Direct examples: JH: "Please apply this patch." JH: "[it is not] worth my time to read your policies" JH: "I won't be submitting patches to you, but this is still a bug" AJ: "Then file a proper bug, showing the exact error and the exact compiler and OS version you are using." JH: "I can't do that." AJ: "Nothing to fix then. File a new bug if/when this happens in a public version." JH: "It is still a valid concern, so reopening. You still have conflicts." AJ: "No we don't, the code builds just fine on Mac." JH: "I suggest you join the ADC and try building wine on the latest development versions available." Yeah, Vitaliy is perfectly justified in saying JH is wasting our time and doesn't deserve a bugzilla account. As an aside: JH's bug is only triggered by mixing ObjC code with Wine, presumably by using an ObjC compiler. He admits the current (and correct) solution is "shipping ... it in MacPorts to protect our users". Reading between the lines, does this mean Apple will be shipping Wine with the next MacOSX version? Also: his patch is, in my opinion, a mess of unreadable nonsense ... but it looks like that's just how Mac support has to be done.
Jeremy: Here's a problem, and a patch to fix it. Wine developers: Follow the rules or you'll get no sympathy. Jeremy: I don't have time for that! Wine developers:We don't see any problem. Tell us more. Jeremy: I can't. Vitaliy: Then we can't take your patch, even if it is right. Jeremy: You'll have to take my patch on faith. Vitaliy: Go to hell! Screw you! I'm banning you! Jeremy: Screw you, too! I'm outta here!
You better re-read the entire bug report again. What you said is offensive towards me and I request your apology!
The topic is over, at least for me. You are behaving exactly the same way Jeremy did disregarding everyone and everything because _you_ perceive something differently then everyone else here. And making conclusions without reading the entire conversation or being familiar enough with bugzilla.
Vitaliy.
Hi, One of the reasons I suspect for filing a "proper" bug report in this case is to discern what the core problem is. If Wine headers and Objective C headers do not co-operate, the solution is the arbitration of a mutually acceptable solution, not the assumption of a (not unbiased) party as to where the "fault" is. Bear in mind, in this case, there is not necessarily a fault at all. Wine replaces Windows and Windows expects to be the primary platform. There are bound to be conflicts with other packages such as Objective C runtime components since both platforms will be trying to assert basic typedef norms for the environment. The proper method would be to present the problem to the Wine developers, explain the situation and negotiate a solution which all are happy with. I don't really understand why Jeremy feels that he cannot properly deal with the situation. If he is prevented by Apple from dealing with the Wine developers for fear of smoke-signalling some future Apple development, then he is already in the wrong and he would, I am sure, not forgive you for making such a public fuss on this list. Let it pass and learn from the experience. Cheers, Ralph
On 03/11/2012 12:52 PM, Dan Kegel wrote:
Vitaliy wrote:
Can you show me exactly where did I yell at him? Or where I wasn't polite enough
I think it was http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=29922#c14 where you wrote If that is yelling for you, then I'm definitely not understanding English... Elaborate what _exact_ part of that was yelling?
There ought to be some wiggle room granted people who work at important neighboring projects who are unable for whatever reason to follow Wine's usual conventions; at the very least, That's what happens most of the time. If those other people actually willing to work with us. And don't reply to the request of showing what's the problem is with:
---snip--- AJ:
Then file a proper bug, showing the exact error and the exact compiler and OS version you are using. Jeremy: I can't do that. Read between the lines. ---snip---
So clearly Jeremy has no desire to work with Wine developers. He can't clearly demonstrate the problem. So what is there to fix? Vitaliy.
On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Vitaliy Margolen <wine-devel(a)kievinfo.com> wrote:
If that is yelling for you, then I'm definitely not understanding English... Elaborate what _exact_ part of that was yelling?
I guess it comes down to unnecessary roughness. Sure, he was out of line, but AJ had already explained things to him. You could have let the guy get the last word in.
So what's to fix?
It's hard to quantify, but partly as a result of your comment, he seems to be actively telling folks that the Wine community is rude and unpleasant. When I was doing lots of interviews at a tech company, the idea was that even if we were going to reject a candidate, we would still treat him well, and try to give him a good impression of the company. The thinking was that even if we didn't want him, we might be interested in his friends. The same idea might apply here. - Dan
On 03/11/2012 07:26 PM, Dan Kegel wrote:
On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Vitaliy Margolen I guess it comes down to unnecessary roughness. In what way? Telling a user if you don't comply to _our_ rules in _our_ place you will be banned is rough? You have other ideas how to stop anyone from reopening a bug that everyone one from Wine said "please do not reopen"? Of course just ignoring this bug won't work, as everyone who active on bugzilla will be attempting to close it again.
Sure, he was out of line, but AJ had already explained things to him. You could have let the guy get the last word in. Last time I've checked anyone can still post comments into closed bugs.
So what's to fix?
It's hard to quantify, but partly as a result of your comment, he seems to be actively telling folks that the Wine community is rude and unpleasant. One can never stop other people from spreading FUD if they really want to do so.
we might be interested in his friends. The same idea might apply here. You think a never ending close-reopen match would have been better? And wouldn't have resulted in him being banned for real?
Vitaliy.
On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 8:45 PM, Vitaliy Margolen <wine-devel(a)kievinfo.com> wrote:
On 03/11/2012 07:26 PM, Dan Kegel wrote:
On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Vitaliy Margolen I guess it comes down to unnecessary roughness.
In what way? Telling a user if you don't comply to _our_ rules in _our_ place you will be banned is rough?
Yes. It's understood, I think, so saying it outright is a bit of a slap in the face.
You have other ideas how to stop anyone from reopening a bug that everyone one from Wine said "please do not reopen"? Of course just ignoring this bug won't work, as everyone who active on bugzilla will be attempting to close it again.
I would suggest just letting things settle down.
Sure, he was out of line, but AJ had already explained things to him. You could have let the guy get the last word in.
Last time I've checked anyone can still post comments into closed bugs.
Indeed. There's nothing one can do technically to keep a determined poster out.
It's hard to quantify, but partly as a result of your comment, he seems to be actively telling folks that the Wine community is rude and unpleasant.
One can never stop other people from spreading FUD if they really want to do so.
Yes, but by being kind one can reduce the anger level and make it less likely the person will feel like venting.
we might be interested in his friends. The same idea might apply here.
You think a never ending close-reopen match would have been better? And wouldn't have resulted in him being banned for real?
You're assuming he would have continued mud-wrestling. That's not a given. - Dan
I just came across this, and I think I see where the root of the problem lies. On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 14:42, Vitaliy Margolen <wine-devel(a)kievinfo.com> wrote:
---snip--- AJ:
Then file a proper bug, showing the exact error and the exact compiler and OS version you are using.
Jeremy: I can't do that. Read between the lines. ---snip---
So clearly Jeremy has no desire to work with Wine developers. He can't clearly demonstrate the problem. So what is there to fix?
You need to be familiar with Apple's corporate culture to understand what Jeremy is saying. Apple has very strict non-disclosure policies with respect to unreleased products. What Jeremy is saying here is that Wine has a compile conflict with an upcoming Apple product (probably a version of Xcode, but possibly a version of MacOS), but he can't say it outright without risking incurring the wrath of Apple. -- Mark Wagner
On 21 March 2012 08:02, Mark Wagner <carnildo(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I just came across this, and I think I see where the root of the problem lies.
On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 14:42, Vitaliy Margolen <wine-devel(a)kievinfo.com> wrote:
---snip--- AJ:
Then file a proper bug, showing the exact error and the exact compiler and OS version you are using.
Jeremy: I can't do that. Read between the lines. ---snip---
So clearly Jeremy has no desire to work with Wine developers. He can't clearly demonstrate the problem. So what is there to fix?
You need to be familiar with Apple's corporate culture to understand what Jeremy is saying. Apple has very strict non-disclosure policies with respect to unreleased products. What Jeremy is saying here is that Wine has a compile conflict with an upcoming Apple product (probably a version of Xcode, but possibly a version of MacOS), but he can't say it outright without risking incurring the wrath of Apple.
At the same time, the bug Jeremy reported cannot be reproduced, so there is nothing for Wine to fix. And I reiterate: the issue is being caused by mixing Obj-C code with Wine's C code, which is not happening on Wine's side. Jeremy is asking for Wine to accommodate his buggy developer's version of Apple's product.
-- Mark Wagner
participants (6)
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Ben Klein -
Charles Davis -
Dan Kegel -
Mark Wagner -
Ralph Little -
Vitaliy Margolen