re: Potential forum at linuxquestions.org
Mike Hearn wrote:
It's not meant to replace wine-users, and especially not wine-devel of course.
Why a forum rather than a mailing list?
That question, plus all the 'advantages' you list, indicate that you do indeed intend it to replace wine-users, at least for some users. A web interface that let you post to the mailing list would be fine. A web forum would not. It would mean that, if I wanted to answer user questions, I'd have to get used to another strange interface that probably has crappy indexing and is full of fruity HTML that gets in the way. I have read linuxquestions.org a bit, and don't like it much; I dislike the idea of encouraging people to use closed discussion forums like that, which don't support any sort of external archiving. Now, if you want to make things easier for users, there's room for improvement on the winehq forums page. For starters, the Forums link on the main page is buried a bit; it ought to be higher up (say, right after FAQ; the HowTo link should be part of Documentation). On the Forums page, the wine-users(a)winehq.com list should probably be the first thing on the page. The newsgroup link is currently wrong(!); it's currently news://comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine/ but should be news:comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine And we should probably link to the newsgroups at gmane.org, too. Shall I prepare patches for the website to implement these changes so people can see what I'm suggesting? - Dan
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:15:09 -0800, Sir Dan Kegel scribed thus:
That question, plus all the 'advantages' you list, indicate that you do indeed intend it to replace wine-users, at least for some users.
Yes, for those users for whom it's clearly not working (otherwise why are there so many wine related posts in random web forums scattered around the net)?
A web interface that let you post to the mailing list would be fine. A web forum would not. It would mean that, if I wanted to answer user questions, I'd have to get used to another strange interface that probably has crappy indexing and is full of fruity HTML that gets in the way.
Actually, the LQ archives are indexed very well by Google (and they use a heavily stripped form of HTML). It also has a built in search feature, as well as an instant "threads similar to this one".
I have read linuxquestions.org a bit, and don't like it much; I dislike the idea of encouraging people to use closed discussion forums like that, which don't support any sort of external archiving.
I don't see how they are closed. They're indexed by Google, it has its own search engine built in (which is more than wine-users does), and anybody can access them without needing to sign up.
Shall I prepare patches for the website to implement these changes so people can see what I'm suggesting?
Go ahead, but a few minor rejigs to WineHQ are not a replacement for a web forum. Or do you think we should shut down #winehq too, on the grounds that it's not archived at all and you need to use strange clients with fruity syntax? thanks -mike
Mike Hearn wrote:
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:15:09 -0800, Sir Dan Kegel scribed thus:
A web interface that let you post to the mailing list would be fine. A web forum would not. It would mean that, if I wanted to answer user questions, I'd have to get used to another strange interface that probably has crappy indexing and is full of fruity HTML that gets in the way.
Actually, the LQ archives are indexed very well by Google (and they use a heavily stripped form of HTML). It also has a built in search feature, as well as an instant "threads similar to this one".
But they don't solve the fundemental problem for me - I need a "push" interface. Experience has shown that I am totally unable to follow a forum where I need to go out and check whether anything got updated. With mailing list (and also nntp), new stuff automatically arrives at my box, and is clearly marked as new. For that reason, any web only interface is totally unacceptable. I understand that many people, mostly newbies, find the mailing interface every bit as confusing. That's fine with me. That's why a both solution is necessary. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Open Source integration consultant Home page & resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/
Useally forums have an option to notify you when replies were added to a thread you replied to. Roderick On Thursday 13 November 2003 11:52, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
Mike Hearn wrote:
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:15:09 -0800, Sir Dan Kegel scribed thus:
A web interface that let you post to the mailing list would be fine. A web forum would not. It would mean that, if I wanted to answer user questions, I'd have to get used to another strange interface that probably has crappy indexing and is full of fruity HTML that gets in the way.
Actually, the LQ archives are indexed very well by Google (and they use a heavily stripped form of HTML). It also has a built in search feature, as well as an instant "threads similar to this one".
But they don't solve the fundemental problem for me - I need a "push" interface. Experience has shown that I am totally unable to follow a forum where I need to go out and check whether anything got updated. With mailing list (and also nntp), new stuff automatically arrives at my box, and is clearly marked as new. For that reason, any web only interface is totally unacceptable.
I understand that many people, mostly newbies, find the mailing interface every bit as confusing. That's fine with me. That's why a both solution is necessary.
Shachar
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:24:28 +0100, Sir Roderick Colenbrander scribed thus:
Useally forums have an option to notify you when replies were added to a thread you replied to.
Yeah, and in fact that's on by default on LQ.org, so at least for me it's a non-issue... I don't find it hard to keep track of threads at any rate.
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Dan Kegel wrote: [...]
Now, if you want to make things easier for users, there's room for improvement on the winehq forums page. For starters, the Forums link on the main page is buried a bit; it ought to be higher up (say, right after FAQ; the HowTo link should be part of Documentation).
The current location looked ok to me.
On the Forums page, the wine-users(a)winehq.com list should probably be the first thing on the page.
Yes, we could tweak this. What about the following order: wine-announce wine-users wine-devel wine-patches wine-cvs wine-releases wine-license wine-bugs wine-tests-results
The newsgroup link is currently wrong(!); it's currently news://comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine/ but should be news:comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine
Where did you find the broken link? I found one like you describe in a Wine Weekly News 2000/01/17, but the forum page looks ok: <a href="news:comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine">comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine</a>
And we should probably link to the newsgroups at gmane.org, too.
The newsgroup is not indexed at Gmane, only the mailing lists are. I can add a link like so: [(Un-)Subscribe] [Archive] [Gmane] wine-announce(a)winehq.com ...
Shall I prepare patches for the website to implement these changes so people can see what I'm suggesting?
Well, I attached a patch proposal... -- Francois Gouget fgouget(a)free.fr http://fgouget.free.fr/ Indifference will certainly be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
Francois Gouget wrote: >>On the Forums page, the wine-users(a)winehq.com list should >>probably be the first thing on the page. > > Yes, we could tweak this. What about the following order: > > wine-announce > wine-users > wine-devel > wine-patches > wine-cvs > wine-releases > wine-license > wine-bugs > wine-tests-results i.e. move 'users' up right after 'announce'. That's perfect. >>The newsgroup link is currently wrong(!); it's currently >> news://comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine/ > > > Where did you find the broken link? Would you believe Mozilla 1.5 did it? Hard to believe, but true. Sounds like a bug in mozilla! >>And we should probably link to the newsgroups [gatewayed mailing lists] at gmane.org, too. > ... > diff -u -r1.9 forums.template > --- templates/en/forums.template 4 Sep 2003 15:55:45 -0000 1.9 > +++ templates/en/forums.template 15 Nov 2003 15:34:07 -0000 > ... > + <li> > + [<a href="http://www.winehq.org/mailman/listinfo/wine-users">(Un-)Subscribe</a>] > + [<a href="http://www.winehq.org/hypermail/wine-users/">Archive</a>] > + [<a href="http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.emulators.wine.users">Gmane</a>] > + <a href="mailto:wine-users(a)winehq.com">wine-users(a)winehq.com</a><br> > + A medium traffic (10/day) open list for end-user discussions.<br><br> Oddly, the 's' needs to be dropped from the gmane version; it's wine.user, not wine.users. I would suggest also linking to the nntp interface at gmane, which is the whole point of gmane. With those two changes: > + <li> > + [<a href="http://www.winehq.org/mailman/listinfo/wine-users">(Un-)Subscribe</a>] > + [<a href="news://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.emulators.wine.user">via newsreader</a>] > + [<a href="http://www.winehq.org/hypermail/wine-users/">Archive 1</a>] > + [<a href="http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.emulators.wine.user>Archive 2</a>] Also, for wine-devel, I'd suggest adding a third archive, http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=wine-devel&r=1&w=2 The marc interface is like vi: some people will hate it, but it's very good for searching. Very, very good. (BTW, there's another archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/wine-devel%40winehq.org/ but it doesn't offer any advantages over the ones you already have, I think.) > --- wwn/wn20000717_52.xml 25 Jul 2003 18:45:03 -0000 1.4 > +++ wwn/wn20000717_52.xml 15 Nov 2003 15:15:07 -0000 > @@ -163,7 +163,7 @@ > <p /> > > Gérard posted some follow-up of a debugging discussion he had on > -<a href="news:///comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine"> > +<a href="news:comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine"> > comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine</a> (Title was 'Wine with ASS won't run > stripped binaries'). Good change, thanks. - Dan
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003, Dan Kegel wrote: [...]
The newsgroup link is currently wrong(!); it's currently news://comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine/ Where did you find the broken link?
Would you believe Mozilla 1.5 did it? Hard to believe, but true. Sounds like a bug in mozilla!
I'm using Mozilla 1.5 too but it seems to be working here (didn't fully test though). [...]
Oddly, the 's' needs to be dropped from the gmane version; it's wine.user, not wine.users.
Yes, I believe they just made a typo when naming the gmane newsgroup. [...]
I would suggest also linking to the nntp interface at gmane, which is the whole point of gmane. With those two changes:
+ <li> + [<a href="http://www.winehq.org/mailman/listinfo/wine-users">(Un-)Subscribe</a>] + [<a href="news://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.emulators.wine.user">via newsreader</a>] + [<a href="http://www.winehq.org/hypermail/wine-users/">Archive 1</a>] + [<a href="http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.emulators.wine.user>Archive 2</a>]
Also, for wine-devel, I'd suggest adding a third archive, http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=wine-devel&r=1&w=2 The marc interface is like vi: some people will hate it, but it's very good for searching. Very, very good.
I think it's best not to multiply links and interfaces too much. Let's get the Gmane links in first. Sending patch... -- Francois Gouget fgouget(a)free.fr http://fgouget.free.fr/ Any sufficiently advanced bug is indistinguishable from a feature. -- from some indian guy
participants (5)
-
Dan Kegel -
Francois Gouget -
Mike Hearn -
Roderick Colenbrander -
Shachar Shemesh