Jan Zerebecki, I'd be happy to help, but how? I could develop some guidelines and rules for admins to follow, but then what? How would they be enforced? I have no authority to put such things in place. Its not the writing rules that's hard, its the enforcing them. Here: i'll write them now:
Either participate politely or don't participate at all
Break up flamewars, don't start them.

James Keane, "oh well" is a valid answer to my question that would have solved my problem? I think you're getting mixed up between caretto and I.
"He is not our employee we can not reprimand him for his actions and neither can you."
There needs to be some kind of structure, though. Presumably, unless he's the project leader, there's someone who can take away his admin privileges. There should be guidelines for how admins behave, and admins who don't behave according to said guidelines should have their admin privileges suspended or removed.

Abel Chiaro, he said "I don't f*** care where you download the file to caretto, not me.

Tom Wickline, I am Pie-rate, not carretto. I still don't agree with how he handled carretto. Maybe the community should try appointing admins based on people skills, not coding skills?

The problem here is I asked a question in a help channel, not to him specifically, but he answered it just to state that he doesn't care. He then banned me for voicing concern over whether he should be doing such things.

Juan, I think I sent my previous message to you instead of the list. Sorry for sending it to you twice.
Ok, no one really got the message here. I guess it really wasn't clear, and that's my fault.
I am Pie-rate. The comment about windows was probably offtopic, but its not nearly as ridiculous as vitamin cussing out both caretto and I, and banning me for voicing concern over the fact that an admin is doing such things.
vitamin: carretto, I do not f*** care where you download
the file.
vitamin: Pie-rate, STFU if you have nothing to say
Ok, the swearing is really not that bad. I don't really care if someone swears at me. What really gets me angry is that vitamin *banned* me for voicing a perfectly valid point, when vitamin answered a question with "oh well," without trying to help, and before anyone else tried to help. As I said, this would be rude if he was some random guy, but he's an admin. As I said before, this is like inviting someone to an installfest, and then spitting in their face and saying "STFU RTFM GO AWAY AND GOOGLE." All it does is makes people distance themselves from OSS as far as possible.

"This is an invitation to flame if ever I saw one, and if civility flies out the window, it begins here."
No, civility flies out the window HERE:
(09:44:34 PM) vitamin: Pie-rate, oh well
and HERE:
vitamin: carretto, I do not f*** care where you download

Civility is important to a degree in the freenode channels, but swearing like a sailor while banning people who complain about it is just ridiculous. As an admin, you should be helping politely or not helping at all, and breaking up flamewars, not starting them.

As for the fix to my problem, that's completely beside the point now.

I hope that clears some things up.

On 8/16/07, Juan Lang < juan.lang@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Jonathan, I'm changing forums here, as I don't agree that
wine-devel is the appropriate place for it.  I'm cc'ing vitamin, since
he's being discussed.

I'm also breaking a rule against top-posting, since I want to state my
position up front:  I agree that civility is important.  I also agree
that vitamin sometimes lacks tact.  So let's look at the post a little
bit:

On 8/15/07, Jonathan Challinger < mr.challinger@gmail.com> wrote:
> Below is a log of #winehq, from 9:44 to 10:09 on Wednesday August 15th:
> (09:43:50 PM) Pie-rate: my brother's girlfriend's WoW install is
> crashing (locking up, stops responding) randomly. she will install
> windows tomorrow if it doesn't get fixed. i don't like windows and i
> don't want to deal with it.

I'm sorry, but this bit about Windows is completely off-topic.

> the message it crashes with is:
> (09:43:50 PM) Pie-rate: err:ntdll:RtlpWaitForCriticalSection section
> 0x509da8c "?" wait timed out in thread 0047, blocked by 003e, retrying
> (60 sec)

Okay, that's a real problem.  Now we're getting somewhere, though it's
hard to diagnose.

> (09:43:50 PM) Pie-rate: this is with an install copied over from my
> computer, which i KNOW works flawlessly, and wine 0.9.41

Now we have a problem.  Installing apps into Wine is the only
supported configuration.  Copying over installations isn't supported,
and this is well documented (see the FAQ in the wiki:
http://wiki.winehq.org/FAQ#head-3647fcb12328bf8f43d7cfce4d0dcbcee12c0541
)

I know this is no consolation, but we often see requests from people
who don't follow the instructions, and that tries our patience.  It's
been said over and over again, but since not everyone is getting
message, I'll say it again:
1.  Don't copy programs from a Windows install.
2.  Don't use winetools or ies4linux or anything else that installs a
bunch of Microsoft DLLs.

If you do, we can't (won't) help you, as the problem may or may not be
with Wine.

> (09:43:54 PM) carretto: vitamin: what?
> (09:44:10 PM) carretto: vitamin: _period?
> (09:44:15 PM) vitamin: <vitamin> carretto, you have to install the game
> on Wine

Vitamin makes this point again here.  Since it has been well
documented, I think he shows civility by not flaming about it.

> (09:44:34 PM) vitamin: Pie-rate, oh well
> (09:44:43 PM) Pie-rate: vitamin: "oh well?"
> (09:44:46 PM) Pie-rate: vitamin: no magic fix?
> (09:44:55 PM) carretto: vitamin: wine <game install>?
> (09:45:11 PM) vitamin: carretto, something like that

Again, this seems civil to me.  "Oh well" is not particularly clear,
but Pie-rate (sorry, I can't tell who's who) clears it up just fine, I
think.

> (09:45:33 PM) otaku [n= otaku@c-24-15-187-230.hsd1.il.comcast.net ]
> entered the room.
> (09:46:53 PM) carretto: vitamin: wine: Call from 0x40136e to
> unimplemented function MFC42.DLL.6929, aborting
> (09:47:10 PM) vitamin: carretto, get the newer version of that dll
> (09:49:56 PM) carretto: vitamin: i donwload MFC42.dll on dll.files and
> past to wine system folder
> (09:50:04 PM) vitamin: carretto, get the newer version of that dll
> (09:50:14 PM) carretto: here i get the newer version?
> (09:50:21 PM) vitamin: from windows

Again, all perfectly civil, and correct.  Since mfc42 is not part of
Wine, an application calling into a missing function in it is a
symptom of a problem with the installation, not with Wine.

> (09:50:50 PM) carretto: vitamin: i download version v. 4.21.71
> (09:51:32 PM) shingo2 [n= shingo@p5487EFF1.dip.t-dialin.net] entered the
> room.
> (09:52:27 PM) carretto: vitamin: where i get the new version?
> (09:54:48 PM) prgrmr [n= prgrmr@bzq-88-154-138-152.red.bezeqint.net]
> entered the room.
> (09:55:37 PM) _3 [n=lol@89-178-108-192.broadband.corbina.ru] entered the
> room.
> (09:57:20 PM) carretto: vitamin: can help me?
> (09:57:38 PM) vitamin: carretto, I already answered all your questions

Again, civil and true.

> (09:57:50 PM) Pie-rate: vitamin: Read the topic. "End user/tech support
> channel for Wine." A derogatory-sounding "oh well" is nothing more than
> flamebait. Either say nothing, or help. That's what I try to do, and
> that's what's in the best interest of the project. I believe you are a
> channel admin, correct? Saying "oh well," without even trying to help is
> rude, but saying "oh well" without even trying to help, as a channel
> admin? That's like inviting people to an installfest, and then when they
> ask for help installing something saying "OH WELL" and spitting in their
> faces.

At this point, I think Pie-rate loses it.  This is an invitation to
flame if ever I saw one, and if civility flies out the window, it
begins here.

Regarding whether Vitamin acts appropriately as a channel admin:
there are two issues here.  First, do channel admins have the
responsibility to maintain civility?  Second, do channel admins in
#winehq have the responsibility to help people with wine?

In my opinion, the answer to the first is yes, channel admins do have
that responsibility.  If people are flaming, a channel admin can try
to tone things down a bit before tempers flare.  vitamin did an
admirable job being patient, I think, if he lost his patience at the
end.  Frankly, I would have too.

The answer to the second question is a resounding no.  In fact, I, a
longtime Wine developer (and channel admin), am often less qualified
to help people with their programs than other users are.  I prefer to
let the community help itself out, and when I do jump in irc -
admittedly more and more seldom these days - I rarely have an answer
before someone else does.

Basically, I think civility may have been lost a little bit in this
exchange, but it didn't begin with vitamin.  I also think your
expectations for support are quite high!

Anyway, if you are Pie-rate, best of luck with your girlfriend's
computer.  Cheers,
--Juan