[Bug 13517] New: Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

Summary: Forums breaking mailing lists
           Product: WineHQ.org
           Version: unspecified
          Platform: All
        OS/Version: All
            Status: UNCONFIRMED
          Severity: critical
          Priority: P2
         Component: www-unknown
        AssignedTo: [e-mail]
        ReportedBy: [e-mail]

*Forums don't remind users that they're posting to a mailing list (the forum
should).

*Forum break's email threads and fails to remind users to quote properly. 
Forum should properly set References: or In-reply-to: headers and require
proper quoting.

These two problems make the mailing lists nearly unusable for experienced
users, and as a result, nearly useless for new users who end up getting more or
less wrong advice from vitamin and no experienced users.  Please disable the
forums until these bugs are fixed.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

Dan Kegel  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
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                 CC|                            |[e-mail]

--- Comment #1 from Dan Kegel   2008-05-28 15:28:45 ---
I don't think it's as bad as all that.
Yes, there is now threading breakage,
and Vitamin does sometimes give boilerplate
advice, but he's right fairly often.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

Vitaliy Margolen  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|UNCONFIRMED                 |RESOLVED
         Resolution|                            |INVALID

--- Comment #2 from Vitaliy Margolen   2008-05-29 00:26:32 ---
That's not for you to decide.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

Vitaliy Margolen  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|RESOLVED                    |CLOSED

--- Comment #3 from Vitaliy Margolen   2008-05-29 00:27:30 ---
Closed. Don't like it - don't use the mailing list. Use forum interface. Or
create your own ML.

This is bad place for such discussion - bring to wine-devel for example.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

Paul Johnson  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|CLOSED                      |UNCONFIRMED
         Resolution|INVALID                     |

--- Comment #4 from Paul Johnson   2008-05-29 14:20:49 ---
The forums are worse:  You can't choose the interface or create filters.  Plus,
when they're down, they're down.  You can't go through previous messages.  The
break in threads is a major problem, let's not brush it off as a non-issue with
petty parentalisms.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

Vitaliy Margolen  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
           Severity|critical                    |enhancement

--- Comment #5 from Vitaliy Margolen   2008-05-29 17:34:02 ---
Patches are welcome.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

--- Comment #6 from Paul Johnson   2008-05-30 19:37:36 ---
What about consolidating on Google Groups?  I see this as having several
advantages over the current situation, with an overall win/win outcome.

Addressing the original bullet points in this bug:

* Forum interface correctly formats replies "email style."  It doesn't
encourage ideal quoting habits (ie, conversational, aka interspersed, quoting),
but at least Jeopardy-style quoting is better than nothing.  Quoting (among
other things) could be addressed in the group introduction.  No more mystery
replies on the mailing list side.

* Threading is 100% consistent between the forum and email.  No more broken
threading on the mailing list side.

Additionally,

* the integration between the webforum version and the mailing list version is
seamless, and works with new and existing Google logins, and a features
familiar forum interface consistent with other web forums.

* nothing to patch, no wonky gateway to maintain.

* forum and mailing list maintenance gets a unified interface.

Given that the project is part of the Summer of Code, it's seems fairly obvious
there isn't a conflict of interest by using Google Groups.  Everybody wins.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

--- Comment #7 from Dan Kegel   2008-05-30 21:25:46 ---
It's been suggested, but Google Groups isn't forum-y enough
for the forum-lovers somehow.  I can't quite figure out what
it is they don't like.

And this is still around:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine
If we could keep the email - news gateway going, it
would even be a perfectly good way to post to the current forum.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

--- Comment #8 from Paul Johnson   2008-05-31 19:51:01 ---
Well, let's not dismiss the idea until the forum folks can provide constructive
criticism instead of "we don't like it."  After all, if they wanted choice of
interface, they wouldn't be using a forum...

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

--- Comment #9 from Dan Kegel   2008-05-31 20:24:12 ---
If you want to change the status quo, it's up to you to
put together an alternative interface that pleases
the forum types.  And it may be difficult - they
just love the forum-ness of real forums, and
have trouble articulating why.  Usability testing
might be in order.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

--- Comment #10 from Paul Johnson   2008-06-07 15:21:02 ---
Just so we're clear:  You're suggesting I unilaterally open a google group and
encourage people to use that instead of the wine forums/mailing lists?  Is this
going to have any support, or is this a "Ha ha, let's watch him fail" setup?

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

--- Comment #11 from Dan Kegel   2008-06-07 20:01:18 ---
You'd have to approach it as an experiment with just a couple
people rather than trying to move everybody, of course,
and you'd probably want to sit there with them while they
tried it, to gather their impressions.  (At least via chat.)

Yeah, it's pretty hard.  That's why I haven't done it myself yet.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

Paul Johnson  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                URL|                            |http://groups.google.com/gro
                   |                            |up/wine-users

--- Comment #12 from Paul Johnson   2008-06-09 01:13:12 ---
Huh, interestingly enough, it appears that there is a wine-users list on Google
Groups that you're already on.  Uuuuh?

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

--- Comment #13 from Dan Kegel   2008-06-09 08:19:58 ---
That's right.  I went halfway down that road last year or so, but didn't have
the energy to complete the experiment.  I'm willing to help, if there's
anything you need changed about that list, let me know.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

--- Comment #14 from Paul Johnson   2008-06-23 16:36:24 ---
I didn't really see anything that really suggests moving to Google Groups is
going to particularly hurt anything posted to wine-users.  Merge yah?

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

--- Comment #15 from Paul Johnson   2008-06-28 21:58:06 ---
Since there has been no feedback against the proposal, and the bug is still
very much a nagging problem, can we move forward towards a resolution already?

The increasing traffic on the list is making the problem worse day by day.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

--- Comment #16 from Dan Kegel   2008-06-29 09:02:15 ---
One way to make progress with the
experiment would be to add a bidirectional
gateway between the existing mailing list and the
new proposed one.  Dunno how hard that would
be.  We had one for the usenet group, but that kept
breaking.

Perhaps re-enabling the usenet group gateway would do, too,
as that gets you a very similar web interface, and
could be used for the same kind of usability experiments
on forum users.

Paul, are you willing to help maintain one or the other gateway
and do the usability experiments?

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

--- Comment #17 from Paul Johnson   2008-06-29 14:08:51 ---
I'm afraid I do not have the resources to host it myself at this time, but I
will be happy to help do testing.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

--- Comment #18 from Paul Johnson   2008-06-29 18:18:14 ---
This just hit me... why not make a redirect page explaining the change from the
current forum to the googlegroup, let the mailing list users know what's going
on and subscribe them to the googlegroup?  Keep the old pipermail archive of
the older posts.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

--- Comment #19 from Dan Kegel   2008-06-29 18:19:21 ---
Because we don't want to change it until we know
it'll be well-accepted by both oldtimers and newbies,
and that it solves the problem.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

--- Comment #20 from Paul Johnson   2008-06-29 18:53:54 ---
I'd be more concerned about alienating the old-timers:  Newbies haven't been
around long enough to matter yet.  We know it will solve the problem at hand...

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

--- Comment #21 from Dan Kegel   2008-06-29 19:22:13 ---
The newbies are the ones *demanding* the forums and
rejecting Google Groups.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

--- Comment #22 from Paul Johnson   2008-06-29 19:47:20 ---
Right, but until they've been around long enough to have be able to make a
positive contribution to the community, why do they get a vote?  We're already
seeing old-timer attrition over this bug; if the deadlock is on the newbies
having a say, eventually there will only be newbies and nobody to guide them.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

--- Comment #23 from Dan Kegel   2008-06-29 20:47:26 ---
The whole point of the forum was to make newbies feel
at home.  Newbies are our lifeblood.  Making them feel
unwelcome would be bad for Wine.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

--- Comment #24 from Paul Johnson   2008-06-29 22:07:35 ---
I still don't see the point of an all-newbie forum, since that's where this is
headed if we're going to value newbies higher than old timers.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

--- Comment #25 from Dan Kegel   2008-06-29 22:17:26 ---
Let's take this debate off bugzilla.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

Austin English  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
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                 CC|                            |[e-mail]

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

--- Comment #26 from Ken Sharp   2009-06-10 14:32:49 ---
Can this be closed?

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

--- Comment #27 from Austin English   2009-06-10 14:34:48 ---
(In reply to comment #26)
> Can this be closed?

There's still a couple problems, namely people adjusting summaries which breaks
threads on the mailing lists.

If editing is disabled, then maybe. But that hasn't happened yet.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

Rosanne DiMesio  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|UNCONFIRMED                 |RESOLVED
         Resolution|                            |WONTFIX

--- Comment #28 from Rosanne DiMesio  2011-01-08 07:53:52 CST ---
IMO, it's time to close this. Editing was disabled over a year ago, the most
recent glitch has been fixed, and the forum certainly isn't going to go away.

As to whether this is FIXED or WONTFIX, since the OR's request was to get rid
of  the forum, I'm going with the latter.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

Austin English  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
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             Status|RESOLVED                    |CLOSED

--- Comment #29 from Austin English  2011-01-12 15:01:04 CST ---
Closing.

[Bug 13517] Forums breaking mailing lists

http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13517

Austin English  changed:

What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
           Platform|All                         |Other
         OS/Version|All                         |other

--- Comment #30 from Austin English  2012-02-23 15:00:33 CST ---
Removing deprecated 'All' Platform/OS.