wine-devel

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84469 discussions

Re: Wine license change
by Roger Fujii 08 Feb '02

08 Feb '02

Steve Langasek <vorlon(a)dodds.net> wrote: > Under the LGPL, everyone /will/ contribute back, because that's what the > LGPL requires. If you are using marketing speak for "contribute". GPL requires 1) for you to show your work 2) You effectively license your software to the FSF. It doesn't say it has to be in any useful form to be worked back into the originating project (if any). > Under the LGPL, it's not for them (or for you) to decide > whether they have anything to contribute back; if they make modifications, > they must be shared openly. And you're right that some people don't want > to contribute back. That's precisely WHY we would consider relicensing > under the LGPL. If everyone shared of their own free will, why would we > need a license that said they had to share? The question at hand is > whether or not we want to allow others to benefit from Wine without > sharing their changes. Here we go again.... If this is *all* it did, LGPL is far less objectionable. The problem with *GPL is that it also regulates the UNMODIFIED use of the software. > I make no bones about the fact that I'm a staunch believer in copyleft. > If Free Software has value, then there's also value in keeping it Free. Freedom means allowing people to do things, even things that you don't agree with. BSD = Free. GPL is not. Call a spade a spade.... > > As for commercial interest, I see that Apache+modssl has done quite well > > against any closed-source versions. > I would argue that this is a different ballgame. In the web serving > field, There's More Than One Way To Do It, there shouldn't be... http and ssl are 'well' defined protocols. > and trying to avoid forks leads to infrastructure issues as you need more > and more management to make decisions and guide the project. this is a project SIZE issue and has very little to do with the license. > In Wine, most of the decisions have already been made by Microsoft for us, > it's simply a question of implementation; and most of that implementation > is parallelizable to a high degree. and what gives you this impression about wine? Seems that many of the subsystems are interconnected (look at the recent thread on dll mapping). Can't imagine that DX support wouldn't impact anything else. > Having a license that allows commercial offshoots of a > webserver lets companies come up with innovative new designs that > wouldn't have been incorporated into the main tree. Having a license that > allows commercial offshoots of Wine potentially leads to a bunch of > different Windows emulators, each of which is 98% complete and none of > which works with half the software people want it to. If it works 100% with the 1-3 pieces of software a user needs it for, the user certainly wouldn't care. The question is whether the alternative would be better or not..... > I'm sure that under a BSD-style license, Wine could continue to outcompete > any commercial offshoots. The question is, which license model gives us > the best chance of competing with *Microsoft*, who already has the lead? If this is the goal (it certainly is mine), then *GPL is not a good choice, because it would interfere with deployment (*GPL wouldn't allow being bundled with the playstation2 or other HW platforms as an example). If acceptance is the goal and you care about wine in a non-linux context, stay with BSD/X11. If you don't care about expanding the pie, go *GPL.... -r

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Re: wine license change - look at how ghostscript is licensed
by dschwarz＠bellatlantic.net 08 Feb '02

08 Feb '02

As a non-coder but longtime interested observer of the WINE project, here are my ideas: Consider doing what ghostscript does (http://www.ghostscript.com/). New versions are released under the AFPL license (more restrictive than GPL). Old versions are re-released under GPL when they are about 1 year out of date. This may be applicable to Wine. Like Wine, ghostscript tracks an evolving API. Older versions are useful but may not have all the latest bells and whistles. Those that need to be on the cutting edge have to use the more restrictive license. How this could be applied to Wine: Going forward, all builds are released under LGPL. They are then re-released one year later under an X11 style license. Regards, Daniel Schwarz http://www.winecentric.com/ coming soon... the wine wiki! test it at http://www.winecentric.com/test

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Re: Wine license change
by Andreas Mohr 08 Feb '02

08 Feb '02

Seems Slashdot is fast today ;-) They already have a thread about the proposed license change running. One guy made an interesting suggestion: a "dual license" scheme (like MySQL uses) where you switch to (L)GPL, but certain companies are allowed to take code without contributing everything and their arms and legs back... -- Andreas Mohr Stauferstr. 6, D-71272 Renningen, Germany Tel. +49 7159 800604 http://home.nexgo.de/andi.mohr/

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Re: Wine license change: it's about time!
by Roger Fujii 08 Feb '02

08 Feb '02

Gavriel State <gav(a)transgaming.com> wrote: > Quite the opposite: It is not 'competitive advantage' that concerns us, > or others using our code without contributing their own code. It is > simply that we could not and cannot afford to do our development without > monetary compensation. If the OLE DLLs had been LGPLed, we could not > have been able to afford to do any DCOM work, since we would have had > no prospect of getting paid for it. > > Under the LGPL, the only possible business model is this: > a) Find someone who might need some piece of code > b) Sell them on: "We can do this for you, and release it under > the LGPL for $x dollars. We're really good at what we do, > honest" > c) Do the work, and hope to actually get paid. well, a)+b) is really the same, and you left out d) sell support on the changes, but yes, there are only 3 choices. I really think that *GPL will have problems in the long term because there is no real economic way to sustain it, but it's going to take VAlinux/SUSE/RedHat to finally go down in flames for people to take a long, hard look at the issue. Think the patent model (with a much shorter protection period) is a good place to start. > The LGPL simply slams the door shut on that whole model, saying in effect > "It's my way or the highway". It also slams the door shut to non-development areas too. -r

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Re: wine-devel digest, Vol 1 #714 - 13 msgs
by Roger Fujii 08 Feb '02

08 Feb '02

dschwarz(a)bellatlantic.net wrote: > Consider doing what ghostscript does (http://www.ghostscript.com/). New > versions are released under the AFPL license (more restrictive than GPL). > Old versions are re-released under GPL when they are about 1 year out of > date. This is fine for the "owners" of the project. It gives them a grace period and makes sure that changes gets worked back in. However, if you are on the outside, it blows, since you must IMMEDIATELY make your changes available (because of the GPL). > How this could be applied to Wine: Going forward, all builds are released > under LGPL. They are then re-released one year later under an X11 style > license. This won't work very well since all that this is really requiring is that changes to the changes are LGPLed, but not changes to the base. What might work is this (though this won't be considered "open" by those self-professed 'champions' of open-source. BSD/X11 base with the following LGPLish addition: Modifications to 'derived work' must be made available within 12 (or some reasonable period) months of initial publishing under the same terms. This way, unmodified versions aren't virialized like the GPL, but you will (eventually) have access to any improvements. -r

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RE: Wine license change: it's about time!
by Patrik Stridvall 07 Feb '02

07 Feb '02

> Patrik Stridvall wrote: > > > Bottom line is clear: as the project matures and becomes more > > > useful, the deterant of contributing code back from a business > > > perspective is going to greatly increase, while at the same > > > time, the incentive under the LGPL would have also increased. > > > > This is a just claim without any sort of proof. > > It seems like a reasonable analysis to me; contributing code > represents a bigger and bigger gift as Wine comes closer to > completion, > as your competitors will be able to produce useful products with > less and less work. The only likely head to head competitors that I can see are two companies that uses Wine to port their competing applications. As Wine nears completion, the competive advantage fixing Wine at all instead of working around the difference in their respective application becomes quite low so I don't think we will see that many patches from either. LGPL or no LGPL. > Under the LGPL, this is ok, because you'll have > access to the competitor's code as soon as he starts shipping ig. > Under the X license, you're in trouble, and have to hustle to > reproduce > the work the competitor did. In the longer perspective neither company will live or die because the better quality of the Wine port, but rather because of the better quality of their application. So even the company that is nice to Wine is not likely to suffer serious competive disadvantages anyway. In fact it might even make sense to them to make a deal that they should treat Wine as it was LGPL despite being competitors. But this is their choice and we shouldn't force it on them. > > For head to head competitors > > it has some (but only some) relevance. However this is not > the kind of > > business models we are likely to see IMHO. > > Really? Sun doesn't compete head to head with IBM? I some markets, yes. In the Wine market neither of then competes so your example is largerly irrelevant. Anyway, if both would enter the Wine market I would be very suprised if they really competed head to head. I would rather think they did it in some niche of their own. > > > In economic terms, for Wine, one spells death, the other, life. > > > > Another grandiose claim without any substance. The world is not that > > simple. Both approaches has their pros and cons but neither is life > > not death. > > It captures the essense of how the two licenses set up incentives, > though. In a simplified enconomic theory: Perhaps. In the real world: Difficult to tell, but I believe not. > I think Patrik and I agree that it's important for the Wine license > to provide economic incentives for companies to contribute to the > Wine project. Yes. > His legal analysis of the LGPL differs so sharply > from mine (or that of most people), as far as I can tell, that > just about nobody agrees with his point of view on it. Perhaps it is because I'm bad on explaining what I mean. Anyway, I would rather be alone and right than not alone and wrong. :-)

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RE: Wine license change: it's about time!
by Patrik Stridvall 07 Feb '02

07 Feb '02

> On Thu, 7 Feb 2002, Dan Kegel wrote: > > > It's about time. Putting Wine under the xGPL is the best way > > I can think of to ensure its future. The xGPL makes it possible > > for competitors to cooperate for their common good - which > is pretty amazing. > > This is a fundamental point which we haven't had a chance of > discussing > last time as we argued over silly future (unlikely) possible > changes in > copyright law. I think you missunderstood what I was saying I said that I believe that the courts eventually will interpret the CURRENT law as I suggested since it the way that IMHO makes the most logical sense. For the law to perform as you wish will require very complex and possible self countradictory or unconstitutional interpretations. Anyway, there is no reason to restart that discussion. I and Alexandre have in private mail agreed that we disagree and the discussion is ended. Lets for the sake or argument assumes that the LGPL can do what you believe it can. I will try to in this and latter mails explain why this is not a good idea for a project like Wine that is not an ordinary library like the LGPL is designed for. > One important argument was that building a thriving economic > environment > around Wine is essential for its success. > > Everybody agreed on this premise, IIRC. Yes. > The argument followed that BSD license is better for creating such an > environment, and hence better for Wine, since more business will > contribute more code back. Yes. > This, I'm afraid, is entirely false. > > I argue that in fact, the BSD license is a STRONG DETERANT > for businesses > to contribute code back, while the LGPL provides an INCENTIVE. For normal libraries this might have some (but only some) truth in it . However Wine is not a normal library as in vain tried to explain last time. Trying to claim that LGPL is good for Wine because (and only because) it is good for normal libraries is pure nonense. There are fundamental differences among them: In the normal LGPL:ed library world, an application that demands some extra functionallity in some LGPL:ed library can do that by implementing that functionallity is the application itself or possibly if the extra functionallity is extensive in a new library. No need to extend the LGPL:ed library. Here LGPL doesn't hurt at all. The application or for that matter the new library can be of any license. You would be hard pressed to claim derivation even if the new library calls your LGPL:ed library. Claiming derivation for the application is clearly absurd. Another difference: In the normal LGPL library world, the application will need the extra functionallity for the NEXT version. In the Wine world, the application will need the extra functionallity for the CURRENT version since it already work on Windows. > Note that I do not care, for the purpose of this discussion, about > businesses which don't intend to contribute code back. They > are of no help > to Wine, and thus irrelevant (if not a little harmful, for reasons so > eloquently explained by Alexandre). Just because they initialy decide not to contribute back doesn't mean that they won't do it in the future then they for example see the work of keeping a seperate tree. Or like in the case of Transgaming when they feel their income is secure. You can't just dismiss such businesses as irrelevant. Irrelevant now, perhaps. Irrelevant tomorrow, maybe, maybe not. > A BSD license is a STRONG DETERANT for a business to contribute code > back. The reason for this is that they have no guarantee that another > business will not improve a little the code, and thus get a > competitive > advantage. Or that other companies will not use that code on > top of the > code they wrote but not released, and thus again, get that > edge. What competitive advantage? I don't believe that you will see many business model that will make sense in the Wine world will compete head to head with some other business model, including the main tree. They will select a niche and try and live there. Some will succed some will not. However there is no reason to make survivial harder. > This is a > fantastic _deterant_ for releasing code back. In fact, Gav validated > exactly this point when he tried to argue for the BSD license > last time: > > <talking about the DCOM work> > But there are companies out there who will benefit significantly > from commercial use of this code, and who can afford to sponsor a > portion of the development cost. Until such a sponsorship happens, > we cannot apply the WineHQ license to that code. > > In other words, they needed that code. They invested some money do get > it. They are happy with the results. Why not release the > code? They have > what they needed in the first place? The reason is clear -- > it cost them > to get there, they can not aford to bring everybody there for > free. I can > 100% understand that. But if the code was under the LGPL, it would not > matter, because even if they brought everybody there, other companies > could not step ahead of them, since if they did, they themselves could > have used that code. > > In other words, TG could have kept Direct3D proprietary, released > everything else back under LGPL, and they could have _known_ > they still > have the competitive edge in the D3D work! This is why the > LGPL is in fact > an _incentive_ for such colaboration. Read Gavriels reply. Need I say more? > Bottom line is clear: as the project matures and becomes more > useful, the > deterant of contributing code back from a business > perspective is going to > greatly increase, while at the same time, the incentive under the LGPL > would have also increased. This is a just claim without an sort of proof. For head to head competitors it has some (but only some) relevance. However this is not the kind of business models we are likely to see IMHO. > In economic terms, for Wine, one spells death, the other, life. Another grandiose claim without any substance. The world is not that simple. Both approaches has their pros and cons but neither is life not death.

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Re: Favor: I need examples of un or poorly documented APIs
by Fredrik Ohrn 07 Feb '02

07 Feb '02

One little gem I found once is "GetInputDesktop", exported from user32.dll in Windows NT and friends. It belongs to the "Window Station and Desktop Functions" topic in MDSN but isn't mentioned anywhere at all. The function can for example be used to detect if a screen saver is running or if the Login/SAK-screen is active. I don't know if it is used by Microsoft in anything that isn't part of the core OS. Regards, Fredrik Ohrn -- "It is easy to be blinded to the essential uselessness of computers by the sense of accomplishment you get from getting them to work at all." - Douglas Adams Fredrik Öhrn Chalmers University of Technology ohrn(a)chl.chalmers.se Sweden

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Re: Wine license change
by David Wheeler 07 Feb '02

07 Feb '02

YES. I think switching changing the Wine license to the LGPL is a VERY good idea. If the license isn't changed, Wine is going to continue to suffer from code forks. The current license encourages companies to take Wine, make a proprietary fix, and keep the result proprietary, which means that no one else gets the benefit and the work is fragmented. This is already happening, as Steve Langasek noted: >One thing to bear in mind is that others already ARE forking the Wine >code... Other companies are forking >with no intention to contribute back (see Lindows.com); still others >(Transgaming) have made reintegration of their work contingent >on turning a[n] profit. As Wine becomes more capable, there will be more companies who do this, taking but never contibuting. I agree with Dan Kegel, who said: >It's about time. Putting Wine under the xGPL is the best way >I can think of to ensure its future. The xGPL makes it possible >for competitors to cooperate for their common good - >which is pretty amazing. As Bob Young said .. >"There's been a fundamental problem of getting industry consortium >to work together... But we don't have a single corporate lawyer >in the room. We haven't signed a single licence among any of us... >With the GPL, we have eliminated the need for trust." In my opinion, the LGPL more accurately reflects how most Wine developers _actually_ work. I think many contibutors expect that anyone who improves Wine itself will give those contributions back to the community, while still allowing proprietary programs to use Wine as a library or infrastructure. The LGPL merely changes this expectation into an enforceable requirement. #include <standard_disclaimer.h> --- David A. Wheeler dwheeler(a)ida.org

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RE: Example of ODBC and wine
by Medland, Bill 07 Feb '02

07 Feb '02

Yes unixODBC and DB2 It's easy enough for that. Bill > -----Original Message----- > From: Ricardo [mailto:r00tzz@yahoo.co.uk] > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 9:19 AM > To: wine-devel(a)winehq.com > Subject: Example of ODBC and wine > > > has anyone used wine with a program that conects to an ODBC > database? How > have you set this? I was thinking about FreeTDS but i > configured it and > doesn't know what to do nexe. Any help? > Thanks > Ricardo > > > > >

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RE: Wine license change
by Patrik Stridvall 07 Feb '02

07 Feb '02

[Oh, no here we go again] > Some recent events have occurred that have made me change my opinion > about a Wine license change. I see. > During my involvement in the Wine project, I have always striven to > make sure that I, and my company, did what was best for the Wine > project. Before I critize you to much. I would like to point out for the record that I do believe that you and Codeweavers as far reasonable possible have done what you claim and that you have my gratitude and respect for that. However remember that: "The road the hell is paved with good intentions." > I believe Wine's success will help to make the world a > better place. Partly agreed. I believe that people moving from Windows to Unix is a good thing and that Wine (or Wine like projects) are among the nessary tools to acceive this. It is not the only tools though. > To that end, often through difficult personal > negotiations, I have always insured that all of my contracts require > that all code changes be returned to Wine. This, in effect, treats > Wine as an LGPL product. You have my respect for that as explain above. However I'm not entirely convince that this always is a good thing. It is a probably a good strategy by average but do not believe it is always the right thing. In military terms: A strategic retreat is often good, eventhough retreat as a strategy is not. > You can argue that the flexibility granted by the Wine license has > meant that I received some business I would not otherwise have had. > Gav, for example, has pointed out that Corel would never have worked > on Wine if not for its license. There are two ironies there - first, > Corel has always been a great Wine citizen, IMO, never 'abusing' the > license. Second, while we did work with Corel to help them with Wine, > we never signed a contract with them. Their lawyers and I were never > able to agree on a contract that we thought would sufficiently protect > Wine. Fortunately for me, we were able to work with Corel without a > contract, but this issue to this day creates unnecessary friction > between my company and Corel. Read that Gavriel have written again. Surely you must realize that there is a difference between: 1. Specificing a goal in the beginning and be legally forced to stick to it until the end no matter what. 2. Specificing a goal in the beginning and be legally able to retarget when reallity didn't turn out as you expect. There is a difference between striving to do good and being forced to do good because of an earlier promise despite the fact that reality has changed. > However, with some recent events I cannot disclose, it is clear to me > that the opportunity for Wine to be used in a proprietary product is > too tempting and has caused some harm to the Wine project. Based on > experience, I feel strongly that the potential for harm is great > enough that CodeWeavers needs to take two actions. First, we would > like to release all new code we develop under an LGPL style license. > Second, I would like to open another call for a license change and > thereby strongly add my voice to Alexandre's. Luckily for you your credibillity is pretty high. Normally I immediately raise the red flag of warning then I heard claims made referring to undisclosed information. I understand that you are worried about the future but don't let your fears drive you onto the wrong path. > Thus, I would like to call for a change in the Wine license. I think > we all agreed that the LGPL formed the basis for a good 'alternate' > license strategy. Eben Moglen, the counsel for the FSF, has kindly > offered to help review licensing strategies for Wine. The goal is to > attempt to secure some form of Copyleft protection for Wine while > still permitting proprietary software to link and bind with Wine. I > think it it is great that we have, in Eben, not only the leading legal > scholar on free software licensing, but a great hacker to boot. I > think he will clarify exactly what is possible and what is not > possible with GPL style licenses and insure that the license we choose > will meet our goals. Talking to Eben can only help. However we need to very careful to specify not only what we want to acceive but also and MUCH more importantly what we want to _avoid_ the license from accidently preventing. So what do you want this new license to acceive? And the much more important question what do you want to avoid the license from accidently preventing? > When Alexandre last brought up this issue, he was very disappointed. > He felt that there was not enough support from the 'silent majority' > of Wine developers for a license change. His overriding lament to me > was 'No one cares'. I care. > He further felt that since a small number of > major Wine contributors objected, that it was not appropriate to > change the license. > > I would like to ask for a more formal process. I would like each and > every contributor to Wine to send Alexandre a private email with an > 'Agree' or 'Disagree' opinion, so that he can more truly assess what > the contributors to Wine really want. The specific question I wish to > pose is as follows: > > Should the Wine project switch to a license which has as > its goal to attempt to secure some form of Copyleft > protection for Wine while still permitting proprietary > software to link and bind with Wine? > > Please privately let Alexandre (julliard(a)winehq.com) know what you > think, and then publicly respond to this thread as you feel > appropriate. Done. > Finally, in closing, I wanted to summarize our position. We plan to > release our future work under an xGPL style license, and we would like > the rest of the Wine community to join us. If the bulk of the > community wants to stick with the current license, then we will > probably end up making a separate CVS development tree. Anyone would > be free to use our work from that tree, under the xGPL-style license > terms the FSF's lawyers recommend. Is that a threat or what? Hmm. I think I will intrepret is as symptom of your fears and advise you to try and avoid acting in a hastely manner. By all means start a dialog the FSF lawyers, but don't do anything you might later regret.

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Conferences
by Keith Matthews 07 Feb '02

07 Feb '02

Speaking of conferences, is anyone planning on going to FOSDEM (16th & 17th Feb, Brussels) ? -- Keith Matthews Frequentous Consultants - Linux Services, Oracle development & database administration

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Example of ODBC and wine
by Ricardo 07 Feb '02

07 Feb '02

has anyone used wine with a program that conects to an ODBC database? How have you set this? I was thinking about FreeTDS but i configured it and doesn't know what to do nexe. Any help? Thanks Ricardo

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Re: Wine license change
by Dave Jones 07 Feb '02

07 Feb '02

I like the LGPL and all, but I think converting to this license will hurt greatly the current projects such as Lindows and Transgaming and, in proxy, hurt wine. Mindshare is important, and to see Wine in succesful projects helps people to realize it as a viable product. I don't think anybody is turned off from developing wine with its current license, but the change would turn away many I'm sure. Some people get thier paychecks working on Wine (Transgaming). I think TG has done great things for Wine, and I wouldn't have supported them had they not promised to release thier changes back to the main wine tree. Lindows, however, can eat it. By not intending release thier changes and to sieze the Wine code to make it thiers for profit, I cannot, and will not support them. What I would like to see is a new licence that sees that all forks move back into the main wine tree at regular intervals, say, after 6 months or a year while still allowing companies to do what they will with the code. We aren't looking to stifle innovation here, I like the TG subscription model, and I would probably contribute in that kind of fashion to many projects, but there must be an incentive to do so (like TG's DirectX work) I am against a change to LGPL, but I realize the current license is allowing lindows to stand on the shoulders of giants and wearing a long overcoat to cover it up, and that is just wrong. Dave Jones - dajones(a)purdue.edu

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Re: Wine license change
by Robert Boucher 07 Feb '02

07 Feb '02

Just a quick question that I haven't seen addressed: If the license is changed to LGPL, who will own the copywrite? The contributors, or the Wine Project? -Rob

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Wine license change
by Jeremy White 07 Feb '02

07 Feb '02

Folks, Some recent events have occurred that have made me change my opinion about a Wine license change. During my involvement in the Wine project, I have always striven to make sure that I, and my company, did what was best for the Wine project. I believe Wine's success will help to make the world a better place. To that end, often through difficult personal negotiations, I have always insured that all of my contracts require that all code changes be returned to Wine. This, in effect, treats Wine as an LGPL product. You can argue that the flexibility granted by the Wine license has meant that I received some business I would not otherwise have had. Gav, for example, has pointed out that Corel would never have worked on Wine if not for its license. There are two ironies there - first, Corel has always been a great Wine citizen, IMO, never 'abusing' the license. Second, while we did work with Corel to help them with Wine, we never signed a contract with them. Their lawyers and I were never able to agree on a contract that we thought would sufficiently protect Wine. Fortunately for me, we were able to work with Corel without a contract, but this issue to this day creates unnecessary friction between my company and Corel. However, with some recent events I cannot disclose, it is clear to me that the opportunity for Wine to be used in a proprietary product is too tempting and has caused some harm to the Wine project. Based on experience, I feel strongly that the potential for harm is great enough that CodeWeavers needs to take two actions. First, we would like to release all new code we develop under an LGPL style license. Second, I would like to open another call for a license change and thereby strongly add my voice to Alexandre's. Thus, I would like to call for a change in the Wine license. I think we all agreed that the LGPL formed the basis for a good 'alternate' license strategy. Eben Moglen, the counsel for the FSF, has kindly offered to help review licensing strategies for Wine. The goal is to attempt to secure some form of Copyleft protection for Wine while still permitting proprietary software to link and bind with Wine. I think it it is great that we have, in Eben, not only the leading legal scholar on free software licensing, but a great hacker to boot. I think he will clarify exactly what is possible and what is not possible with GPL style licenses and insure that the license we choose will meet our goals. When Alexandre last brought up this issue, he was very disappointed. He felt that there was not enough support from the 'silent majority' of Wine developers for a license change. His overriding lament to me was 'No one cares'. He further felt that since a small number of major Wine contributors objected, that it was not appropriate to change the license. I would like to ask for a more formal process. I would like each and every contributor to Wine to send Alexandre a private email with an 'Agree' or 'Disagree' opinion, so that he can more truly assess what the contributors to Wine really want. The specific question I wish to pose is as follows: Should the Wine project switch to a license which has as its goal to attempt to secure some form of Copyleft protection for Wine while still permitting proprietary software to link and bind with Wine? Please privately let Alexandre (julliard(a)winehq.com) know what you think, and then publicly respond to this thread as you feel appropriate. Finally, in closing, I wanted to summarize our position. We plan to release our future work under an xGPL style license, and we would like the rest of the Wine community to join us. If the bulk of the community wants to stick with the current license, then we will probably end up making a separate CVS development tree. Anyone would be free to use our work from that tree, under the xGPL-style license terms the FSF's lawyers recommend. Thanks, Jeremy

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RE: Wine compile on MSVC?
by Patrik Stridvall 07 Feb '02

07 Feb '02

> Is this correct that tests are made to compile Wine on MSVC? Only on a small scale, nothing really serious yet. > What good > is this for? I thought Wine should be an emulation of windows > code on a > Unix platform, what good is it to run Windows on Windows? > > Just being curious. :) Well. I qoute myself: "It would be quite nice to have all non core DLL compiling and working and with winetest ported. Then you could just run winetest through the debugger and be able to set breakpoint and step through the code in Visual Studio in order to get all to tests to run properly. :-)" Also note that this would make it possible to debug each dll in an enviroment where all other DLLs except the DLL tested were real Windows DLLs.

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Wine compile on MSVC?
by Gerhard W. Gruber 07 Feb '02

07 Feb '02

Is this correct that tests are made to compile Wine on MSVC? What good is this for? I thought Wine should be an emulation of windows code on a Unix platform, what good is it to run Windows on Windows? Just being curious. :)

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RE: Header files not present on Windows
by Patrik Stridvall 07 Feb '02

07 Feb '02

> >Eventually I guess that the non-core DLL:s never should call any > >non Windows functions at all and the core DLL:s are not really useful > >to compile and run under Windows anyway. > > Well I have only played with the shell32.dll and in any file > in there except > "shelllink.c" removing "unistd.h" entirely had no negative > effect whatsoever. > This means to me that it is not needed at all. The use of > fork(), execvp(), and > waitpid() in "shelllink.c" however seems to require the > "unistd.h" header. > > I'm not sure if shell32 should be considered a core DLL. It > seems to me > rather not. shell32 is not really a core DLL eventhough it is a borderline case since some functionallity might want to intergrate with the desktop. However, it definitly should compile under Windows at least with limited functionallity. > The desired operation could be possibly achieved > with the use > of Windows kernel functions as well. Possibly, but it looks a little Wine specific to me. I'm not 100% sure what the code does. Anyway, we could always choose to exclude that code on Windows. It would be useful to run test on the rest of the functionallity in any case.

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(FWD) Announcing wineconf 2002
by Ove Kaaven 07 Feb '02

07 Feb '02

I received this today... it seems Lindows seem to want to host a Wine conference. I noticed that they misspelled Alexandre's name and email address, though they claim to work with him. Since this is supposed to be an open conference anyway, and it's not a secret (most of the mail is just a straight dump of the webpage they link to anyway), I decided to forward it to wine-devel (but without the HTML). ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:21:18 -0800 From: Cheryl Schwarzman <cheryl(a)lindows.com> To: uczekalla(a)codeweavers.com, andi(a)rhlx01.fht-esslingen.de, andrew(a)transgaming.com, aric(a)codeweavers.com, bon(a)elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de, brianv(a)ski-copper.com, dimi(a)cs.toronto.edu, dmitry(a)codeweavers.com, ekohl(a)codeweavers.com, eric.pouech(a)wanadoo.fr, fgouget(a)free.fr, franciosj(a)macadamian.com, galberte(a)neo.lrun.com, gav(a)transgaming.com, gerard.patel(a)asi.fr, hdavies(a)codeweavers.com, james(a)macadamian.com, jasonfilby(a)yahoo.com, jefft(a)xandros.com, juilliard(a)codeweavers.com, jwhite(a)codeweavers.com, lionel.ulmer(a)free.fr, marcus(a)jet.franken.de, mike_mccormack(a)start.com.au, ovek(a)transgaming.com, ps(a)leissner.se, ridgway(a)winehq.com, sanderv(a)xs4all.nl, tephane(a)macadamian.com Subject: Announcing wineconf 2002 Announcing wineconf 2002 We believe 2002 is the year WINE really breaks through to have a major impact on computing. Many of you have had the vision and dedication long before Lindows.com was around. And it's all of you who deserve the credit. As a small token of our gratitude, we want to do our best to host the first conference dedicated to WINE called wineconf. As the host, Lindows.com will pay the cost of putting on the conference including venue, food and other necessary arrangements. The agenda and speakers will be the members of the WINE community. It will be a two day event on Friday and Saturday where new ideas can be shared, new connections made, and you can hear from the best and brightest pushing the WINE initiative forward. We have dubbed the event wineconf and it will be open to all who wish to attend. We don't expect a large crowd given the highly technical focus. Working with lead WINE mind, Alexandre Juilliard, we have come up with a list of people whose historic contributions to WINE deserve extra recognition. To this group, we're making a special offer by picking up their airfare to and from San Diego for this event. This is Lindows.com way of thanking those who have made contributions in the past to get WINE to the level it is at. We will notify you personally, if you are in this list. If you are not on this list, you are still welcome to attend with no registration fee, but you will be responsible for your own transportation. Hotel costs will range from $75-125 per night. The agenda will be sent out several weeks before the conference outlining the topics and speakers. We will be working with attendees and speakers to ensure we touch all the areas of interest. wineconf will be held in San Diego, CA on March 15th-16th, 2002. We selected San Diego for two primary reasons. First, because it's our home town we can keep the costs down on the venue, transportation, computer facilities, etc. Like all startups (that weren't born in 1999!), we have a finite budget we're trying to stretch as far as possible. Secondly, since WINE is a worldwide effort there's no ideally centralized location, so we selected a place that should be nice and warm in March. (San Diego is 25 minutes south of LA by plane or 1.5 hours by car.) The specific agenda will be forthcoming as we work with WINE contributors to get their input and guidance. You can register online by going here: www.lindows.com/wineconf We hope you can make it! Registration Form: First Name: Last Name: Email: Company: Address: City: State: Zip: Country: Phone: Topics You Would Like To See Discussed: Speakers You Would Like To Hear From: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Optional Part (for those we will be paying for air transportation) Because of your past contributions to WINE, Lindows.com is offering to arrange and pay for airfare from a nearby major metropolitan area to San Diego for you to attend wineconf 2002. This offer is non-transferable. Your flight would depart on Thursday, March 14th and return on Sunday, March 17th. To qualify, by February 13th, 2002, you must: 1. Register online at http://lindows.com/wineconf (enter your name for the "Invitation Code"). 2. Send an email to cheryl(a)lindows.com with the below cancellation payment information. You will need to agree that if you do not attend that you will pay for all costs incurred by Lindows.com related to airfare arrangements. Your credit card will ONLY be billed if you do not attend after saying that you will. Hope to see you in San Diego! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ NOTE: In addition to registering at http://lindows.com/wineconf, we must receive the below information no later than February 13th, 2002 (e-mail this to cheryl(a)lindows.com). After that date, this offer is no longer valid. I agree to attend wineconf 2002 March 14-15th in San Diego and understand that Lindows.com will be paying for my airfare. If I do not attend, I understand that I will have to pay for the costs incurred in the scheduling of this airfare. <"yes I agree." and your name here> Exact name on passport or ID: <put your name here> Nearest Major Airport: <put your city and country here> Credit Card Type: <card type> Credit Card Number: <card number> Credit Card Expiration Date: <exp date> Please remember to travel with picture ID, passport and VISA if required. Further information can be found here http://www.lindows.com/wineconf

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RE: Header files not present on Windows
by Rolf Kalbermatter 07 Feb '02

07 Feb '02

Patrik Stridvall <ps(a)leissner.se> writes: >> Patrik Stridvall <ps(a)leissner.se> writes: >> >> > Hmm. I'm note sure I like making unistd.h >> > an optional header but then few part of >> > Wine should include it anyway so perhaps >> > it doesn't matter. >> >> The question is whether you can build without it. If the needed >> definitions are provided by other includes then it's fine to make it >> optional; but if the code doesn't compile without it then there's no >> point in having a check. > >Yes and in many cases it did work without unistd.h, but maybe that >is because it really wasn't needed at all. > >In some case it might have worked because some of the functions in >unistd.h is defined else where in Windows and in some case we might >get it to work by including needed files. > >Of course in such cases we probably should fix Wine and >include that other header exclusively instead of unistd.h. > >Anyway, I just experimented a little trying to get Wine to compile >under Windows. I'm not really sure exacly what to do. > >Eventually I guess that the non-core DLL:s never should call any >non Windows functions at all and the core DLL:s are not really useful >to compile and run under Windows anyway. Well I have only played with the shell32.dll and in any file in there except "shelllink.c" removing "unistd.h" entirely had no negative effect whatsoever. This means to me that it is not needed at all. The use of fork(), execvp(), and waitpid() in "shelllink.c" however seems to require the "unistd.h" header. I'm not sure if shell32 should be considered a core DLL. It seems to me rather not. The desired operation could be possibly achieved with the use of Windows kernel functions as well. Rolf Kalbermatter CIT Engineering Nederland BV tel: +31 (070) 415 9190 Treubstraat 7H fax: +31 (070) 415 9191 2288 EG Rijswijk http://www.citeng.com Netherlands mailto:rolf.kalbermatter@citeng.com

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Date format
by info2000＠telecable.es 07 Feb '02

07 Feb '02

Hello, IŽm running a windows aplication made on Builder C, and when I execute de program with Wine, I receive an error message, reference to the date format, I get the year correctly, but the rest of date content is ="0", for example 01 January 2002 at 13:20:15 is= 17/20/02 00:00:00 can you help me to fixing this problem? thanks from spain. Jose. --------------------------------------------- Este mensaje fue enviado utilizando el servicio de correo-web de: http://www.telecable.es

2 1

RE: Some more MSVC fixes
by Roger Fujii 07 Feb '02

07 Feb '02

From: Patrik Stridvall <ps(a)leissner.se> wrote: > > Dimitrie O. Paun wrote: > > > On Wed, 6 Feb 2002, Steven Edwards wrote: > > > > > > Any other interesting compilers? Maybe the Solaris one? What about > > > headers? We already have 4 * 4 * 3 = 48 combinations. > > I tried briefly with the Solaris compiler, but there seemed > > to be enough problems that I gave up. I really don't remember what they > > were. > Well, the older versions for one doesn't support __stdcall. > I'm don't know about the newer. well, the current version doesn't seem to run under solx86 even with the gcc. Not certain what changed. Trying to figure it out right now (if only cvs.winehq.org would let me in...) > > It is probably a moot point now, since Sun has announced that there > > will be no Solaris 9 X86. > AFAIK they have only said that Solaris 9 SPARC will be released > before Solaris 9 X86. Of course it is not a good sign if you > read between the lines but still. well, technically, they said that x86 development work has stopped, but they can change their minds. Effectively, they "laid off" solx86, but added "we may ask you back..." Not promising at all.... -r

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RE: Some more MSVC fixes
by Patrik Stridvall 07 Feb '02

07 Feb '02

> Dimitrie O. Paun wrote: > > On Wed, 6 Feb 2002, Steven Edwards wrote: > > > > Any other interesting compilers? Maybe the Solaris one? What about > > headers? We already have 4 * 4 * 3 = 48 combinations. > > I tried briefly with the Solaris compiler, but there seemed > to be enough > problems that I gave up. I really don't remember what they > were. Well, the older versions for one doesn't support __stdcall. I'm don't know about the newer. > It is > probably a moot point now, since Sun has announced that there > will be no > Solaris 9 X86. AFAIK they have only said that Solaris 9 SPARC will be released before Solaris 9 X86. Of course it is not a good sign if you read between the lines but still.

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Re: X connection to :0.0 broken (explicit kill or server shutdown).
by Sylvain Petreolle 07 Feb '02

07 Feb '02

Bonjour, Je rencontre un problème persistant avec wineconsole. Dès qu'il est chargé le système ralentit et wine grandit en mémoire jusqu'à saturation de la mémoire swap.(256M ram physique + 208M swap) Le message "fixme:bitmap:CreateCompatibleBitmap got bad width 1939840 or height 2457900" me fait penser que wineconsole se configure mal. Y a t il un moyen de spécifier une taille de fenêtre ? En regardant le code source (registry.c) jai essayé de mettre la proprété WindowSize à une valeur très petite, mais le lancement en mode debugmsg +reg montre que les valeurs sont ignorées par le programme. Comme vous etes en partie l'auteur de ce programme, je pense trouver un peu de répondant... --- Sylvain Petreolle <spetreolle(a)yahoo.fr> a écrit : > Hi, > > Using wineconsole to try a command line program > like ftp.exe (runs fine whithout wineconsole), > it appears that wineconsole slowdowns the system > and use incredible amounts of memory. > > These are the messages that appear on the wine > command > line : > > fixme:bitmap:CreateCompatibleBitmap got bad width > 1939840 or height 2457900, please look for reason > fixme:console:SetConsoleCtrlHandler (0x1001dc5,1) - > no > error checking or testing yet > fixme:bitmap:CreateCompatibleBitmap got bad width > 1939840 or height 2457900, please look for reason > > then i got the shell prompt, look like the process > had > end up. > (the processes didn't end up of course). > i must kill the processes (the 2 windows desktops > displayed are complete empty and > do not close when asked to close) > > Running it with --debugmsg +relay, I saw that wine > took a long time when running x11drv.SelectObject. > and the last line in the debug text is > X connection to :0.0 broken (explicit kill or server > shutdown). > (this is before I do killall wineconsole wine). > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et > en français ! > Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.fr > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/x-bzip2 name=wineconsole_debug.log.bz2 ___________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.fr

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