how do I find where wine itself is segfaulting?

[Bill Medland]

Background.  I am trying to figure out why a program that I 
thought ran OK on 25 October no longer runs and no longer runs 
when I recompile from that code too.

So the program accesses invalid memory down inside the WNDPROC 
stuff (winproc.c line 418, it says, so I guess it means line 
416)

So I turn on WINDEBUG=+relay to see what is being passed.

And wine segfaults.

Even
export WINEDEBUG=+relay
wine --version

which yields 
0009:Call kernel32.__wine_kernel_init() ret=77ed4e4d
Segmentation fault

I can't use gdb and I can't use winedbg.

Anyone know what is going on?