As some of you may know, Microsoft is planning to totally restrict access to the Microsoft download center to all non-genuine windows users. So you would expect some check for pirated copies of windows to be involved. If you visit the download center with IE you get an activex control, but if you try with Firefox, you'll have to download a little program, that returns a code you have to copy into the download page, to get access to the download you selected. By quickly looking at the program, I noticed it looks for a registry key, this key is... SOFTWARE\Wine\Wine\Config the wine configuration key. the Windows Genuine Advantage program press release http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2005/jan05/01-26GenuineAdvantagePR.... says that in the second half of 2005, all users connecting to the Microsoft download center or to windows update will have to validate their copy of windows. Interestingly if you run the validation program on wine, and the version of windows you're emulating is prior to 2000 or is windows server 20003, you get a message saying a validation code couldn't be found, because of technical difficulties or because you're running an unsupported operating system. If you set winver to win2000, you'll get a validation code that doesn't work, this may be a bug in wine, or in the validation program. A valid and working code is returned if the version is set to xp. Still, even if this is only an initial attempt, they appear to want to discriminate wine users, while this may be acceptable for operating system components/updates, this is probably a violation of anti-trust law for all other downloads. It's also the first time Microsoft acknowledges the existence of Wine.
Ivan Leo.
From: Ivan Leo Puoti
Interestingly if you run the validation program on wine, and the version of windows you're emulating is prior to 2000 or is windows server 20003, you get a message saying a validation code couldn't be found, because of technical difficulties or because you're running an unsupported operating system. If you set winver to win2000, you'll get a validation code that doesn't work, this may be a bug in wine, or in the validation program.
When I run the validation program on my genuine Win2k system, I get the message saying a validation code couldn't be found because of technical difficulties or because I'm running an unsupported operating system. When using IE and thus the ActiveX control there is no problem and my Windows is recognized as genuine. Looks to me the standalone validation program is seriously broken....
Gé van Geldorp.
Ge van Geldorp wrote:
When using IE and thus the ActiveX control there is no problem and my Windows is recognized as genuine. Looks to me the standalone validation program is seriously broken....
What about IE under Wine. It looks like that might work?
Boaz Harrosh wrote:
What about IE under Wine. It looks like that might work?
Maybe, but I don't want to pollute my wine installation with IE.
Ivan.
Ivan Leo Puoti wrote:
A valid and working code is returned if the version is set to xp. Still, even if this is only an initial attempt, they appear to want to discriminate wine users, while this may be acceptable for operating system components/updates, this is probably a violation of anti-trust law for all other downloads. It's also the first time Microsoft acknowledges the existence of Wine.
Ivan Leo.
Let's wait until they actually do something bad before we go around accusing them, shall we?
In any case, at least from a technical point of view, going around such test ought to be fairly simple.
Shachar
I expect that the check program will be reverse engineered and cracked to return "genuine" even for pirate copies in fairly short order. Either that or the pirates will just grab the patches and circulate them on the pirate sites anyway.
Jonathan Wilson wrote:
I expect that the check program will be reverse engineered and cracked to return "genuine" even for pirate copies in fairly short order.
Doesn't relate to us in any way. We are not pirates.
Either that or the pirates will just grab the patches and circulate them on the pirate sites anyway.
That one, unfortunately, I doubt. The patches are the least interesting thing for pirates. If pirates cared about keeping their machines secure, we would have all been at a much better position today.
Shachar Shemesh wine-devel@shemesh.biz writes:
[...]
In any case, at least from a technical point of view, going around such test ought to be fairly simple.
...but is likely to violate the DMCA, leaving users in a legal limbo between the DMCA and the Fair Use Doctrine. What fun.
----ScottG.
On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:45:11 +0200, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
Let's wait until they actually do something bad before we go around accusing them, shall we?
Bear in mind, the reason they're doing this is almost certainly because they know that Wine users often go there to fill in missing pieces from Wine. Currently native DCOM does not seem to be protected, but native MSI is and also MDAC, Windows Media Player and Windows Scripting Host.
As far as I'm concerned, this *is* bad:
1) It may make the lives of Wine users harder as they now have to deal with blocked validations (I suspect their standalone tool will get some bugfixes shortly)
2) It may mean there is more to come. As Ivan said, this is the first time they've done something like this - possibly not the last.
thanks -mike
On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:45:11 +0200, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
In any case, at least from a technical point of view, going around such test ought to be fairly simple
I don't think we want to go there. I demonstrated a way of checking for Wine to Rob last night that we really cannot fix or workaround, and if I can think of it they certainly can too.
Basically if we start integrating workarounds into Wine, it'll lead to an arms race we cannot possibly win. Better to ensure our users don't need anything from that website.
thanks -mike
Mike Hearn wrote:
On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:45:11 +0200, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
In any case, at least from a technical point of view, going around such test ought to be fairly simple
If the mere existence of this key makes the validation fail, what's to stop a virus from simply adding this key as a way to stop legitimate users from downloading the security fix for that same virus? If MS is really doing what we think they may be doing here, I don't think they are going to be enjoying it for long. They are (what else is new?) shooting themselves in the foot (again?).
I don't think we want to go there. I demonstrated a way of checking for Wine to Rob last night that we really cannot fix or workaround, and if I can think of it they certainly can too.
I think I know what way you are thinking of. Not sure someone less versed in the way Wine works (it's an emulator, right?) would figure that one out, but I guess you are right. I'll try to catch you on IRC and see if we are, indeed, talking about the same thing.
Basically if we start integrating workarounds into Wine, it'll lead to an arms race we cannot possibly win.
Technically, it will probably cost them more than it will cost us. Then again, they also have more resources. I'll just point out that I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with MS wishing to keep the parts that truly are core Windows for Windows legal license users only. The main problem with MS is that what they call "core OS" can get quite absurd.
Better to ensure our users don't need anything from that website.
Amen to that. So, opengl, dcom, what else do we need? :-)
thanks -mike
Shachar
Shachar Shemesh wrote:
Mike Hearn wrote: If the mere existence of this key makes the validation fail, what's to stop a virus from simply adding this key as a way to stop legitimate users from downloading the security fix for that same virus?
Security fixes will be available for all users. But additional fixes only for users with genuine windows.
bye ago
NP: Absurd Minds - Creators
Shachar Shemesh wrote:
If the mere existence of this key makes the validation fail, what's to stop a virus from simply adding this key as a way to stop legitimate users from downloading the security fix for that same virus? If MS is really doing what we think they may be doing here, I don't think they are going to be enjoying it for long. They are (what else is new?) shooting themselves in the foot (again?).
Yes, I wonder if they considered that scenario ... presumably if that did happen they'd just have to get people to revalidate.
The main problem with MS is that what they call "core OS" can get quite absurd.
Exactly, right now their new anti-spyware app is protected even though it's definitely a new app. It didn't even exist (in its current form) when the last Windows update shipped.
Amen to that. So, opengl, dcom, what else do we need? :-)
OpenGL we provide ourselves. The big ones that I know about are DCOM, MSI and MDAC.
Ivan Leo Puoti wrote:
As some of you may know, Microsoft is planning to totally restrict access to the Microsoft download center to all non-genuine windows users. So you would expect some check for pirated copies of windows to be involved. If you visit the download center with IE you get an activex control, but if you try with Firefox, you'll have to download a little program, that returns a code you have to copy into the download page, to get access to the download you selected. By quickly looking at the program, I noticed it looks for a registry key, this key is... SOFTWARE\Wine\Wine\Config the wine configuration key. the Windows Genuine Advantage program press release http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2005/jan05/01-26GenuineAdvantagePR....
says that in the second half of 2005, all users connecting to the Microsoft download center or to windows update will have to validate their copy of windows. Interestingly if you run the validation program on wine, and the version of windows you're emulating is prior to 2000 or is windows server 20003, you get a message saying a validation code couldn't be found, because of technical difficulties or because you're running an unsupported operating system. If you set winver to win2000, you'll get a validation code that doesn't work, this may be a bug in wine, or in the validation program. A valid and working code is returned if the version is set to xp. Still, even if this is only an initial attempt, they appear to want to discriminate wine users, while this may be acceptable for operating system components/updates, this is probably a violation of anti-trust law for all other downloads. It's also the first time Microsoft acknowledges the existence of Wine.
Ivan Leo.
By the way, has anyone yet spoken to the Software Freedom Law Center about whether there is legal recourse available to us in this matter (now, or in the future)? How lovely to have had a legal service specify that they wanted the project as a client, scant weeks before a big corporation targeted the project in a quite possibly actionable way (naturally, IANAL, but any 'reasonable person' would find these circumstances sufficient cause to check and see if they were in fact the victim of a prosecutable crime).
Serendipity doesn't happen so often; don't forget to take advantage of it.
:-)
Holly
By the way, has anyone yet spoken to the Software Freedom Law Center about whether there is legal recourse available to us in this matter (now, or in the future)? How lovely to have had a legal service specify that they wanted the project as a client, scant weeks before a big corporation targeted the project in a quite possibly actionable way (naturally, IANAL, but any 'reasonable person' would find these circumstances sufficient cause to check and see if they were in fact the victim of a prosecutable crime).
Serendipity doesn't happen so often; don't forget to take advantage of it.
I have several emails and a voice mail into Eben; I'll bug him again on Monday.
Jer
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:28:59 +0100, Ivan Leo Puoti ivanleo@gmail.com wrote:
By quickly looking at the program, I noticed it looks for a registry key, this key is... SOFTWARE\Wine\Wine\Config the wine configuration key.
Has anyone tried creating this key on Win2k or 98 and seeing what happens with the program?
On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:25:17 -0700, Jesse Allen the3dfxdude@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:28:59 +0100, Ivan Leo Puoti ivanleo@gmail.com wrote:
By quickly looking at the program, I noticed it looks for a registry key, this key is... SOFTWARE\Wine\Wine\Config the wine configuration key.
Has anyone tried creating this key on Win2k or 98 and seeing what happens with the program?
I just created the SOFTWARE\Wine\Wine\Config key here on both Win98 and Win2k. It failed.
Both print the same error:
"Code not available. The validation code could not be obtained. This may be due to technical difficulties, or you may be running an unsupported operating system. Please close this window and attempt the validation process again, or use the Back button in your web browser to return to the download details page. [Error code: 0x8004026d]"
After I remove the key it works on both.
I don't think GenuineCheck.exe is going to make it onto our list of Gold Applications in the AppDB any time soon.
-Brian
I think something that has been overlooked in all this (and which is really off-topic for wine-devel, but I just can't resist) is the fact that with this GenuineCheck.exe program Microsoft are acknowledging the presence of another browser on Windows. Compare this to the situation with the Windows Update site that refuses to work with anything other than IE+ActiveX...
regards, Darryl
On Sat, 2005-02-19 at 16:19 -0700, Brian Vincent wrote:
On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:25:17 -0700, Jesse Allen the3dfxdude@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:28:59 +0100, Ivan Leo Puoti ivanleo@gmail.com wrote:
By quickly looking at the program, I noticed it looks for a registry key, this key is... SOFTWARE\Wine\Wine\Config the wine configuration key.
Has anyone tried creating this key on Win2k or 98 and seeing what happens with the program?
I just created the SOFTWARE\Wine\Wine\Config key here on both Win98 and Win2k. It failed.
Both print the same error:
"Code not available. The validation code could not be obtained. This may be due to technical difficulties, or you may be running an unsupported operating system. Please close this window and attempt the validation process again, or use the Back button in your web browser to return to the download details page. [Error code: 0x8004026d]"
After I remove the key it works on both.
I don't think GenuineCheck.exe is going to make it onto our list of Gold Applications in the AppDB any time soon.
-Brian
On February 19, 2005 03:19 pm, Brian Vincent wrote:
On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:25:17 -0700, Jesse Allen the3dfxdude@gmail.com
wrote:
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:28:59 +0100, Ivan Leo Puoti ivanleo@gmail.com
wrote:
By quickly looking at the program, I noticed it looks for a registry key, this key is... SOFTWARE\Wine\Wine\Config the wine configuration key.
Has anyone tried creating this key on Win2k or 98 and seeing what happens with the program?
I just created the SOFTWARE\Wine\Wine\Config key here on both Win98 and Win2k. It failed.
Both print the same error:
It ran fine on mine (running GenuineCheck.exe). However that might be because I had already run it a couple of times before I added the key.
On Monday 21 February 2005 15:45, Bill Medland wrote:
By quickly looking at the program, I noticed it looks for a registry key, this key is... SOFTWARE\Wine\Wine\Config the wine configuration key.
I was thinking, there may come a day when we have our own check (say, "GenuWineCheck") to see if we're running genuine Wine, i.e. builtin dlls only. Something like the "tainted" check in the linux kernel, that enables you to discriminate binary-only modules.
Because, in the end, who would want to support applications on Wine with binary only dlls mixed in? ;-)
-Hans
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Alexander Gottwald -
Bill Medland -
Boaz Harrosh -
Brian Vincent -
Darryl Dixon -
Ge van Geldorp -
Hans Leidekker -
Holly Bostick -
Ivan Leo Puoti -
Jeremy White -
Jesse Allen -
Jonathan Wilson -
Mike Hearn -
Scott W Gifford -
Shachar Shemesh