RFC: Adding distribution field to Bugzilla

[Austin English]

Howdy everyone,

I'd like to add a distribution field to Bugzilla, to make it easier to
identify when users may have additional patches installed by their
distribution and/or other distribution specific issues (e.g.,
https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35413). It would be a drop down
selection, with the major distributions listed (i.e., ArchLinux, Debian,
Fedora, Gentoo, Mint, RedHat, Slackware, Suse, Ubuntu, other).

Comments/feedback welcome.

[Sebastian Lackner]

On 07.10.2014 20:17, Austin English wrote:
> Howdy everyone,
>
> I'd like to add a distribution field to Bugzilla, to make it easier to
> identify when users may have additional patches installed by their
> distribution and/or other distribution specific issues (e.g.,
> https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35413). It would be a drop down
> selection, with the major distributions listed (i.e., ArchLinux, Debian,
> Fedora, Gentoo, Mint, RedHat, Slackware, Suse, Ubuntu, other).
>
> Comments/feedback welcome.

I think its a good idea and it definitely doesn't hurt to ask for that. Not only in case of patched versions, it would also be useful to know if the user tries to use a broken Wine package (CentOS 7 for example, they provide a 64-Bit-only build). To ensure that users report their distribution as exactly as possible I would also suggest to list individual versions for each distro. We also get bug reports from time to time, where users still use a distro, that has been discontinued since several years ago, and they haven't noticed that yet. xD

The only disadvantage: There is still no guarantee that this information is sufficient.

* Gentoo USE flags ...
* Various different Ubuntu packages (official, ubuntu-wine, third-party, ...)
* Mints stupid decision to not install recommended packages by default, something that the Ubuntu/Debian packages rely on ...

I personally would also vote to include some better diagnostic methods into Wine itself, for example checking for missing libraries. Our wine builds already include such a feature (wine --check-libs), which allows us easily to verify, that the user is not missing something important, like 32-bit libxcomposite, libxrandr, ...

Regards,
Sebastian

[Scott Ritchie]

I would also endorse the addition of a "packaging" component to bugzilla.
Packaging bugs are bugs and users can't at the outset be expected to know
the difference, so it would be nice to not categorically send them away and
hope they refile in the appropriate place (Launchpad etc).  It's somewhat
nice to pass the buck onto distros that break things and close the bug as
invalid, but at the end of the day they are our users too.

The other advantage, of course, is that keeping such bugs open might cut
down on duplicates or encourage someone to become a distro packager (a lot
of distro bugs I suspect happen because no one who knows better actually
has full responsibility over the package).  It would also be easier for me
to search and find them -- right now I have to hope someone subscribes me
to a Wine bug caused by Ubuntu packaging before it gets closed.

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Sebastian Lackner 
wrote:
> On 07.10.2014 20:17, Austin English wrote:
> > Howdy everyone,
> >
> > I'd like to add a distribution field to Bugzilla, to make it easier to
> > identify when users may have additional patches installed by their
> > distribution and/or other distribution specific issues (e.g.,
> > https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35413). It would be a drop down
> > selection, with the major distributions listed (i.e., ArchLinux, Debian,
> > Fedora, Gentoo, Mint, RedHat, Slackware, Suse, Ubuntu, other).
> >
> > Comments/feedback welcome.
>
> I think its a good idea and it definitely doesn't hurt to ask for that.
> Not only in case of patched versions, it would also be useful to know if
> the user tries to use a broken Wine package (CentOS 7 for example, they
> provide a 64-Bit-only build). To ensure that users report their
> distribution as exactly as possible I would also suggest to list individual
> versions for each distro. We also get bug reports from time to time, where
> users still use a distro, that has been discontinued since several years
> ago, and they haven't noticed that yet. xD
>
> The only disadvantage: There is still no guarantee that this information
> is sufficient.
> - Gentoo USE flags ...
> - Various different Ubuntu packages (official, ubuntu-wine, third-party,
>
> ...)
> - Mints stupid decision to not install recommended packages by default,
>
> something that the Ubuntu/Debian packages rely on ...
>
> I personally would also vote to include some better diagnostic methods
> into Wine itself, for example checking for missing libraries. Our wine
> builds already include such a feature (wine --check-libs), which allows us
> easily to verify, that the user is not missing something important, like
> 32-bit libxcomposite, libxrandr, ...
>
> Regards,
> Sebastian

[Rosanne DiMesio]

On Tue, 7 Oct 2014 12:02:07 -0700
Scott Ritchie  wrote:
> I would also endorse the addition of a "packaging" component to bugzilla.

I wouldn't, and I say this despite the fact that it would make it easier for me to keep track of them. Why? Because if users perceive this as the place they are supposed to file packaging bugs, they won't file them with their distro, and they will expect WineHQ to fix them.

Packaging bugs that are filed here are marked upstream, and the user is told to file a bug with their distro.  The problem your users encounter is that Ubuntu closes those bugs as invalid.

[Austin English]

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 1:41 PM, Sebastian Lackner 
wrote:
> On 07.10.2014 20:17, Austin English wrote:
> > Howdy everyone,
> >
> > I'd like to add a distribution field to Bugzilla, to make it easier to
> > identify when users may have additional patches installed by their
> > distribution and/or other distribution specific issues (e.g.,
> > https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35413). It would be a drop down
> > selection, with the major distributions listed (i.e., ArchLinux, Debian,
> > Fedora, Gentoo, Mint, RedHat, Slackware, Suse, Ubuntu, other).
> >
> > Comments/feedback welcome.
>
> I think its a good idea and it definitely doesn't hurt to ask for that.
> Not only in case of patched versions, it would also be useful to know if
> the user tries to use a broken Wine package (CentOS 7 for example, they
> provide a 64-Bit-only build). To ensure that users report their
> distribution as exactly as possible I would also suggest to list individual
> versions for each distro. We also get bug reports from time to time, where
> users still use a distro, that has been discontinued since several years
> ago, and they haven't noticed that yet. xD

I don't want to go that far, the list would quickly become out of date and
grow quite large (see the AppDB for what I mean).
> The only disadvantage: There is still no guarantee that this information
> is sufficient.
> - Gentoo USE flags ...
> - Various different Ubuntu packages (official, ubuntu-wine, third-party,
>
> ...)
> - Mints stupid decision to not install recommended packages by default,
>
> something that the Ubuntu/Debian packages rely on ...

Of course. Getting perfect bug reports is hard, but with just the
distribution name, that's usually enough information for a starting point.
Missing information can be gathered by a comment in the bug.

I personally would also vote to include some better diagnostic methods into
> Wine itself, for example checking for missing libraries. Our wine builds
> already include such a feature (wine --check-libs), which allows us easily
> to verify, that the user is not missing something important, like 32-bit
> libxcomposite, libxrandr, ...

Sure, but that's a separate discussion (and not my decision to make ;) ).

[Rosanne DiMesio]

On Tue, 7 Oct 2014 13:17:32 -0500
Austin English  wrote:
> Howdy everyone,
>
> I'd like to add a distribution field to Bugzilla, to make it easier to
> identify when users may have additional patches installed by their
> distribution and/or other distribution specific issues (e.g.,
> https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35413). It would be a drop down
> selection, with the major distributions listed (i.e., ArchLinux, Debian,
> Fedora, Gentoo, Mint, RedHat, Slackware, Suse, Ubuntu, other).
>
> Comments/feedback welcome.

I like the idea, but one thing that might cause problems is the issue of how to classify Ubuntu derivatives. There are lots of them, they don't all have "buntu" in their names, but they do generally use the Ubuntu Wine packages. Are those users supposed to pick "Ubuntu" or "Other"?

[Scott Ritchie]

Ubuntu "flavors" (*buntu in the name) all use the same package pool
directly, and users sophisticated enough to post a bug report are generally
aware they're using an Ubuntu version.  I support all of them.

Ubuntu derivatives (such as mint and elementary os) might use binary copies
of the packages, might do rebuilds, and might replace certain packages.
They should be listed as either "other" or their own category if they're
popular enough for bugzilla purposes (mint in particular).  I don't support
them.

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Rosanne DiMesio 
wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Oct 2014 13:17:32 -0500
> Austin English  wrote:
> > Howdy everyone,
> >
> > I'd like to add a distribution field to Bugzilla, to make it easier to
> > identify when users may have additional patches installed by their
> > distribution and/or other distribution specific issues (e.g.,
> > https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35413). It would be a drop down
> > selection, with the major distributions listed (i.e., ArchLinux, Debian,
> > Fedora, Gentoo, Mint, RedHat, Slackware, Suse, Ubuntu, other).
> >
> > Comments/feedback welcome.
>
> I like the idea, but one thing that might cause problems is the issue of
> how to classify Ubuntu derivatives. There are lots of them, they don't all
> have "buntu" in their names, but they do generally use the Ubuntu Wine
> packages. Are those users supposed to pick "Ubuntu" or "Other"?
>
> --
> Rosanne DiMesio

[Jerome Leclanche]

I don't think it matters, really. Any of this.

I've been using github a lot more in newer projects and I have grown a
certain dislike of Bugzilla, especially of the *amount of information*
we ask of users. It is in fact quite therapeutic to be able to submit
a bug by filling it in a couple of seconds. To see what I mean:

https://bugs.winehq.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Wine

We ask for a component, 99% of which most users will have no idea
about. Severity, which not only isn't taken seriously on the winehq
bugzilla but also users should have no say in. A plethora of OSes when
95%+ will be Linux and most of the others OSX. Hardware, which almost
never matters (and when it does, is usually set wrong). And then on
top of all this, we ask people to spend time creating output files
rather than paste with a very unfriendly red STOP sign.

Don't get me wrong, this is one of the better bugzilla UIs I've seen.
But it's still horrible.

I know I haven't been active in Wine lately but here is a couple
pennies worth of feedback: If distro patches to Wine truly become
problematic, it's a sign of an area that should be prioritized. And if
those patches are so low quality that they create a host of problems
but are still deemed critical enough by the distros to be included,
then those bugs that are filed *will* matter and those patches should
really be improved. Realistically though, how often does it matter,
and is it significant enough to make *everyone* go through yet another
field when filing a new bug?
J. Leclanche

2014-10-07 23:27 GMT+02:00 Rosanne DiMesio :
> On Tue, 7 Oct 2014 13:17:32 -0500
> Austin English  wrote:
> > Howdy everyone,
> >
> > I'd like to add a distribution field to Bugzilla, to make it easier to
> > identify when users may have additional patches installed by their
> > distribution and/or other distribution specific issues (e.g.,
> > https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35413). It would be a drop down
> > selection, with the major distributions listed (i.e., ArchLinux, Debian,
> > Fedora, Gentoo, Mint, RedHat, Slackware, Suse, Ubuntu, other).
> >
> > Comments/feedback welcome.
>
> I like the idea, but one thing that might cause problems is the issue of how to classify Ubuntu derivatives. There are lots of them, they don't all have "buntu" in their names, but they do generally use the Ubuntu Wine packages. Are those users supposed to pick "Ubuntu" or "Other"?
>
> --
> Rosanne DiMesio

[Michael Stefaniuc]

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On 10/08/2014 05:38 AM, Jerome Leclanche wrote:
> I don't think it matters, really. Any of this.

Quite the opposite, it does matter.

Bugzilla is primary a tool for the triagers / developers working the
bug. It is not a support ticket tracker, it sucks at that.
> I've been using github a lot more in newer projects and I have
> grown a certain dislike of Bugzilla, especially of the *amount of
> information* we ask of users. It is in fact quite therapeutic to be
> able to submit a bug by filling it in a couple of seconds. To see
> what I mean:
>
> https://bugs.winehq.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Wine
>
> We ask for a component, 99% of which most users will have no idea 
> about. Severity, which not only isn't taken seriously on the
> winehq bugzilla but also users should have no say in. A plethora of
> OSes when 95%+ will be Linux and most of the others OSX. Hardware,
> which almost never matters (and when it does, is usually set
> wrong). And then on top of all this, we ask people to spend time
> creating output files rather than paste with a very unfriendly red
> STOP sign.
>
> Don't get me wrong, this is one of the better bugzilla UIs I've
> seen.

That was added after previous complains about the usability of the
default bugzilla bug entry page.
> But it's still horrible.

Mockups of the better design / workflow are welcome. Patches too.
Bonus points for adding an application into Wine that grabs the
relevant Wine/host info in a form that can be just entered into
bugzilla with just one copy and paste. And then all that is needed to
be typed in manually would be a Summary and a Problem Description.
> I know I haven't been active in Wine lately but here is a couple 
> pennies worth of feedback: If distro patches to Wine truly become 
> problematic, it's a sign of an area that should be prioritized. And
> if those patches are so low quality that they create a host of
> problems but are still deemed critical enough by the distros to be
> included, then those bugs that are filed *will* matter and those
> patches should

You can as well say that it isn't a priority for the distributions to
work with upstream to get those patches in. So if it isn't a priority
for the distributions, why should it be one for Wine?

Anyway there is definitely a need for a Wine Staging tree to help
smooth the path for those type of patches into upstream Wine.
Luckily there are now a few people that are trying to do just that:
https://github.com/wine-compholio/wine-staging
And their looking for more helping hands and interesting patches.

bye
    michael
> really be improved. Realistically though, how often does it
> matter, and is it significant enough to make *everyone* go through
> yet another field when filing a new bug? J. Leclanche
>
> 2014-10-07 23:27 GMT+02:00 Rosanne DiMesio
> :
> > On Tue, 7 Oct 2014 13:17:32 -0500 Austin English
> >  wrote:
> > > Howdy everyone,
> > >
> > > I'd like to add a distribution field to Bugzilla, to make it
> > > easier to identify when users may have additional patches
> > > installed by their distribution and/or other distribution
> > > specific issues (e.g., 
> > > https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35413). It would be a
> > > drop down selection, with the major distributions listed (i.e.,
> > > ArchLinux, Debian, Fedora, Gentoo, Mint, RedHat, Slackware,
> > > Suse, Ubuntu, other).
> > >
> > > Comments/feedback welcome.
> >
> > I like the idea, but one thing that might cause problems is the
> > issue of how to classify Ubuntu derivatives. There are lots of
> > them, they don't all have "buntu" in their names, but they do
> > generally use the Ubuntu Wine packages. Are those users supposed
> > to pick "Ubuntu" or "Other"?
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[Austin English]

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Austin English 
wrote:
> Howdy everyone,
>
> I'd like to add a distribution field to Bugzilla, to make it easier to
> identify when users may have additional patches installed by their
> distribution and/or other distribution specific issues (e.g.,
> https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35413). It would be a drop down
> selection, with the major distributions listed (i.e., ArchLinux, Debian,
> Fedora, Gentoo, Mint, RedHat, Slackware, Suse, Ubuntu, other).
>
> Comments/feedback welcome.
>
> --
> -Austin

The change has been made in Bugzilla.