Sorry if this mailing list is less than appropriate, but from what I've seen this is where the conversation was last time, and there doesn't seem to be much better.
A while ago (Probably one-three months), I went to #winehq to ask about something, and was treated rather rudely by vitamin. I got annoyed by him, and made a somewhat rude comment myself (not as rude as he was being, but still probably inappropriate), and he kicked me. I rejoined the channel, and I don't really remember what happened afterwards, but it can't have been too awful as I don't believe I was banned. I do remember being left with a very sour taste with Wine, as I googled vitamin, and found that this was nowhere near the first time he had been needlessly rude to a user and had even given completely unwarranted bans with seemingly no reprimand.
I gradually started going back to winehq for help and questions, with no problems. Last night, I went in to ask if anyone wanted to help me get a program working, and vitamin replied. I groaned to myself, but we had a perfectly civil conversation. At one point he stopped replying, but it's not like I haven't had to walk off myself for various reasons, so I just left quietly.
Today, I joined #ubuntu to try to get something working, and found someone else asking for help with Wine. I (amongst others) recommended they go to #winehq. They joined, but commented in #ubuntu that, quote:
(09:27:58 PM) <Name removed>: man these #winehq people are not friendly at all
I joined #winehq and confirmed my fears that vitamin was being rude to someone else. Vitamin asked what version they were running, they answered with 9.46 (the version in the Ubuntu repos, last I checked), and I recommended they go to winehq.org and follow the instructions on how to add the Wine repos. Vitamin said something along the lines of "that isn't the case here", I said that it's still helpful (to have an up to date version of wine). I then asked if Vitamin had got the program we talked about last night working, and seconds later was kicked. No explanation, the kick line just had "(Vitamin)". Utterly confused, I rejoined, for which I do have a chatlog:
(09:32:56 PM) The topic for #winehq is:[long topic removed] (09:33:09 PM) ***vitamin fucking tired all knowning noobs! (09:33:15 PM) <Name removed, same person from #ubuntu>: wine: cannot find '/media/cdrom0/intro.exe' (09:33:15 PM) vitamin: usrl, you better leave (09:33:25 PM) usrl: Why? (09:33:32 PM) mode (+b *!*n=feba@*.hsd1.ks.comcast.net ) by vitamin (09:33:32 PM) You have been kicked by vitamin: (vitamin)
That's the entire chatlog of my second time joining (I didn't think to save a copy of the first), with nothing removed but a bunch of topic stuff nobody wants to read and the fellow from #ubuntu's nick.
Now, I not only have been banned for apparently being a noob (Again, it's a best guess, Vitamin did not give any clue at all in his kick messages, let alone a warning in the channel) in a channel that is supposed to support end users, but a few minutes later, I see this, again in #ubuntu:
(09:37:15 PM) <Name removed>: well I got banned from winehq for asking a question
This person didn't seem rude at all when I was talking to them. Thankfully, they were able to get their problems resolved in #ubuntu.
Given that vitamin seems to have had user abuse problems in the past, what is going on here? I can understand not getting professional service in an IRC channel, but why is someone who is so needlessly abusive (again, kicking people for little more than asking a question; when the channel is for support.) entrusted with admin abilities? From what I read on another complaint, he seems to be in this position because he is a developer, not because he is truly a good fit for being a moderator or even a helper. While he might be great at coding, his people skills definitely suffer. I can understand getting angry over people asking their questions right, but when you're trying to support end users, you have to be able to deal with at least some stupidity-- and even disregarding that, if you're going to not only kick someone, but ban them, give them some idea of what they did wrong.
It almost seems to me as if he is banning people not because they did something wrong, but because he had a bad day-- like I said, last night he was fairly civil, even though I'm sure I made my share of stupid questions and comments. I'm not sure if this is the only moderator with these sorts of problems, but something needs to be done. Wine is used by all sorts of people, heck, my mother uses it. When all sorts of people are using a program, all sorts of people are going to be having problems with it. I wouldn't expect my mother, or anyone else's, to be able to phrase their question well and make a support person happy, but I also wouldn't expect someone who is supposed to be supporting users insulting them and banning them (not only ignoring their need for help, but effectively making it impossible for many other people to help them as well).
Something needs to change, Wine is something a lot of people switching to non-Windows OS are going to use, and many people could be easily turned off when they find the first place they turn to for help, the place that winehq.org leads them to, not only has very rude people in power, but has no checks or guards to keep said people from ruining a user's experience.
On 11/4/07, feba thatl febaen@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry if this mailing list is less than appropriate, but from what I've seen this is where the conversation was last time, and there doesn't seem to be much better.
A while ago (Probably one-three months), I went to #winehq to ask about something, and was treated rather rudely by vitamin. I got annoyed by him, and made a somewhat rude comment myself (not as rude as he was being, but still probably inappropriate), and he kicked me. I rejoined the channel, and I don't really remember what happened afterwards, but it can't have been too awful as I don't believe I was banned. I do remember being left with a very sour taste with Wine, as I googled vitamin, and found that this was nowhere near the first time he had been needlessly rude to a user and had even given completely unwarranted bans with seemingly no reprimand.
I gradually started going back to winehq for help and questions, with no problems. Last night, I went in to ask if anyone wanted to help me get a program working, and vitamin replied. I groaned to myself, but we had a perfectly civil conversation. At one point he stopped replying, but it's not like I haven't had to walk off myself for various reasons, so I just left quietly.
Today, I joined #ubuntu to try to get something working, and found someone else asking for help with Wine. I (amongst others) recommended they go to #winehq. They joined, but commented in #ubuntu that, quote:
(09:27:58 PM) <Name removed>: man these #winehq people are not friendly at all
I joined #winehq and confirmed my fears that vitamin was being rude to someone else. Vitamin asked what version they were running, they answered with 9.46 (the version in the Ubuntu repos, last I checked), and I recommended they go to winehq.org and follow the instructions on how to add the Wine repos. Vitamin said something along the lines of "that isn't the case here", I said that it's still helpful (to have an up to date version of wine). I then asked if Vitamin had got the program we talked about last night working, and seconds later was kicked. No explanation, the kick line just had "(Vitamin)". Utterly confused, I rejoined, for which I do have a chatlog:
(09:32:56 PM) The topic for #winehq is:[long topic removed] (09:33:09 PM) ***vitamin fucking tired all knowning noobs! (09:33:15 PM) <Name removed, same person from #ubuntu>: wine: cannot find '/media/cdrom0/intro.exe' (09:33:15 PM) vitamin: usrl, you better leave (09:33:25 PM) usrl: Why? (09:33:32 PM) mode (+b *!*n=feba@*.hsd1.ks.comcast.net ) by vitamin (09:33:32 PM) You have been kicked by vitamin: (vitamin)
That's the entire chatlog of my second time joining (I didn't think to save a copy of the first), with nothing removed but a bunch of topic stuff nobody wants to read and the fellow from #ubuntu's nick.
Now, I not only have been banned for apparently being a noob (Again, it's a best guess, Vitamin did not give any clue at all in his kick messages, let alone a warning in the channel) in a channel that is supposed to support end users, but a few minutes later, I see this, again in #ubuntu:
(09:37:15 PM) <Name removed>: well I got banned from winehq for asking a question
This person didn't seem rude at all when I was talking to them. Thankfully, they were able to get their problems resolved in #ubuntu.
Given that vitamin seems to have had user abuse problems in the past, what is going on here? I can understand not getting professional service in an IRC channel, but why is someone who is so needlessly abusive (again, kicking people for little more than asking a question; when the channel is for support.) entrusted with admin abilities? From what I read on another complaint, he seems to be in this position because he is a developer, not because he is truly a good fit for being a moderator or even a helper. While he might be great at coding, his people skills definitely suffer. I can understand getting angry over people asking their questions right, but when you're trying to support end users, you have to be able to deal with at least some stupidity-- and even disregarding that, if you're going to not only kick someone, but ban them, give them some idea of what they did wrong.
It almost seems to me as if he is banning people not because they did something wrong, but because he had a bad day-- like I said, last night he was fairly civil, even though I'm sure I made my share of stupid questions and comments. I'm not sure if this is the only moderator with these sorts of problems, but something needs to be done. Wine is used by all sorts of people, heck, my mother uses it. When all sorts of people are using a program, all sorts of people are going to be having problems with it. I wouldn't expect my mother, or anyone else's, to be able to phrase their question well and make a support person happy, but I also wouldn't expect someone who is supposed to be supporting users insulting them and banning them (not only ignoring their need for help, but effectively making it impossible for many other people to help them as well).
Something needs to change, Wine is something a lot of people switching to non-Windows OS are going to use, and many people could be easily turned off when they find the first place they turn to for help, the place that winehq.org leads them to, not only has very rude people in power, but has no checks or guards to keep said people from ruining a user's experience.
I agree that this isn't something that should continue. Kicking should be reserved for people being disruptive. There is no reason to be anything other than polite to users asking for help.
Allowing this kind of behavior to continue reflects poorly on us as a community. I'd like to suggest that this be the last time we hear about issues like this. If it happens again I'd like to propose a graduated scale of irc channel bans, starting at one month, for Vitamin.
Chris
On 11/5/07, Chris Morgan chmorgan@gmail.com wrote:
I agree that this isn't something that should continue. Kicking should be reserved for people being disruptive. There is no reason to be anything other than polite to users asking for help.
Allowing this kind of behavior to continue reflects poorly on us as a community. I'd like to suggest that this be the last time we hear about issues like this. If it happens again I'd like to propose a graduated scale of irc channel bans, starting at one month, for Vitamin.
Chris
I hope this is a joke! There is absolutely nothing wrong with they way Vitamin handles himself in #winehq. When these people come crying to wine-devel they leave out about 98% of the facts, 100% of the time.
Tom
On Monday 05 November 2007 08:09:03 Tom Wickline wrote:
On 11/5/07, Chris Morgan chmorgan@gmail.com wrote:
I agree that this isn't something that should continue. Kicking should be reserved for people being disruptive. There is no reason to be anything other than polite to users asking for help.
Allowing this kind of behavior to continue reflects poorly on us as a community. I'd like to suggest that this be the last time we hear about issues like this. If it happens again I'd like to propose a graduated scale of irc channel bans, starting at one month, for Vitamin.
Chris
I hope this is a joke! There is absolutely nothing wrong with they way Vitamin handles himself in #winehq. When these people come crying to wine-devel they leave out about 98% of the facts, 100% of the time.
Tom
but the resolution is not and shouldnt be a kick. as far as i know vitamin did the exact same some weeks ago. did that help? no. if he would tell them that upgrading is not a good idea because of XXX it could help more... or just change the topic... or or or.
On Monday 05 November 2007 06:12:42 Chris Morgan wrote:
I agree that this isn't something that should continue. Kicking should be reserved for people being disruptive. There is no reason to be anything other than polite to users asking for help.
How much time do you spend in #winehq? I know I don't spend much time there, but I know it's a thankless job. four out of five people who ask for help there seem to a) expect you to drop everything you're doing to help them b) insult the person trying to help if the suggestion doesn't work c) threaten to go back to windows and expect you care. d) leave before you get around to answer
After we had talked about improving the user experience in #winehq on WineConf, I tried to actually be online there more often, and that's the usual pattern I see there.
Allowing this kind of behavior to continue reflects poorly on us as a community.
This is true, I'm not going to argue about that. However, I think your conclusion is wrong.
I'd like to suggest that this be the last time we hear about issues like this. If it happens again I'd like to propose a graduated scale of irc channel bans, starting at one month, for Vitamin.
You're suggesting to ban the single most active supporter on #winehq. I think this is a bad idea. What we really need to do is to get more people in there doing support so that people like vitamin can take some time off if they're about to loose their temper as opposed to kicking annoying (whatever that means) users.
Personally, I would like to see more people stepping up to help run #winehq instead of just complaining about the work of one of the very few people who actually are out there helping users.
Cheers, Kai
The line above is very important. I think it had to be sent to the channel. Please imagine yourself saying:
(09:33:15 PM) vitamin: usrl, this will not help, as 0.9.47 and 0.9.48 are still broken for most Source games.
See, exactly. There is no reason to kick someone for making a comment and trying to help someone. If he had said that, or even just said "Usrl, please shut up and just let me handle this." I wouldn't really see a problem with it. It's the fact that I was banned for recommending to someone to add the wine repos to their sources and then asking why I was kicked that I find unacceptable.
If, however, you come in with a know-it-all attitude and try arguing with him or giving out tips which are known to be erroneous,
That's exactly the thing. Even by Vitamin's own admission above, I only said a few lines, none of which had a 'know-it-all' attitude about them, and obviously I didn't think they were wrong. Worse though, he didn't explain why they were wrong, or even that they were wrong. And the thing is, this is the same advice Vitamin gave me rather rudely a couple months ago, that my wine version was out of date, and to get a more recent version. I was trying to help this person, who again had been complaining about people being mean to them.
I didn't argue with him a peep. I recommended to someone that they do such a thing to upgrade Wine, stated that keeping upgraded is good anyway, and then was kicked. I came back and asked why, and was banned, as far as I can tell with no expiry date. I don't know what the other user was kicked for, but I can't imagine it was much more severe.
I'd really like those of you who claim I'm lying or not telling the entire truth to stop though. I told the entire truth, I went in to try to be nice to someone who felt like they were being treated harshly, I made a couple innocent comments, and was kicked. I came back, asked why, and was banned. Nowhere in there was I asked politely to refrain from anything, or even warned for that matter.
I want to make it clear though, this is not entirely about Vitamin. While I do find that his actions are unacceptable for what is probably the first place a lot of Wine users go for help, I don't think it's entirely his fault. It's also, like as mentioned above, probably because he has to deal with a lot of crap in IRC because he feels like he has to help everyone. I feel the same in other places, and I don't think I can honestly say that I wouldn't abuse power if it was given to me. I have no doubt that he has contributed much to the project and helped many users.
The problem I see is that there does not seem to be any rules or requirements for admin actions. This can be a good thing, but when you're kicking people who are just trying to be helpful, without warning or explanation, it isn't.
If you come to #winehq with a question and a helpful attitude, Vitamin will usually do his best to try and troubleshoot the issue, and he is quite cordial while doing it.
Yes, I don't doubt this. Like I said, just last night I had a very civil conversation with him, and he did try to help. Obviously if he did nothing but sit around and ban people, there would be more discussion of this than there is. I am not saying that he is horrible or should have his op rights removed, just that there needs to be some basic treatments established for handling people. Again, a ban without a polite request to stop, a warning, or even an explanation, strikes most people as not only very rude, but also just confusing.
people who get kicked never seem to understand that they fit this negative, unhelpful mold all too well.
Perhaps it's because nobody ever brought it to their attention? Still, I'd rather see someone who is sincerely trying to help get it wrong than someone who can solve it in a heartbeat who kicks the people they are helping when they don't like the answers they're getting.
Again, you have to consider, if your mother needed Wine support, is #winehq really a place you think she'd find helpful? Ignoring the mothers with computer science degrees, many probably wouldn't have a clue what they're doing. It can be annoying, of course, but that comes with being a channel that's supposed to support end users. This is not to say I disagree with banning people who are rude to the people trying to help them, the above mentioned 4 out of 5 people, just that there need to be more guidelines on when and why someone can be kicked or banned.
On Monday 05 November 2007 10:39:32 Kai Blin wrote:
Personally, I would like to see more people stepping up to help run #winehq instead of just complaining about the work of one of the very few people who actually are out there helping users.
As I understand this history feba thatl tried to do exactly that: help others on our user channel... and got banned by vitamin. So if vitamin is really under stress from all these complaining users, he's not helping himself by kicking out others who try to help.
-Hans
On Monday 05 November 2007 11:49:52 Hans Leidekker wrote:
On Monday 05 November 2007 10:39:32 Kai Blin wrote:
Personally, I would like to see more people stepping up to help run #winehq instead of just complaining about the work of one of the very few people who actually are out there helping users.
As I understand this history feba thatl tried to do exactly that: help others on our user channel... and got banned by vitamin. So if vitamin is really under stress from all these complaining users, he's not helping himself by kicking out others who try to help.
-Hans
No, he was just telling the user to upgrade Wine, which vitamin knew would have no effect whatsoever. The only thing that could have benefited from that advice would have been his self-image.
Alexander N. Sørnes
----------------------------------------> From: alex@thehandofagony.com> To: wine-devel@winehq.org> Subject: Re: #winehq admin troubles> Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 12:09:18 +0100> CC: hans@it.vu.nl; kai.blin@gmail.com>> On Monday 05 November 2007 11:49:52 Hans Leidekker wrote:>> On Monday 05 November 2007 10:39:32 Kai Blin wrote:>>> Personally, I would like to see more people stepping up to help run>>> #winehq instead of just complaining about the work of one of the very few>>> people who actually are out there helping users.>>>> As I understand this history feba thatl tried to do exactly that: help>> others on our user channel... and got banned by vitamin. So if vitamin>> is really under stress from all these complaining users, he's not helping>> himself by kicking out others who try to help.>>>> -Hans>>> No, he was just telling the user to upgrade Wine, which vitamin knew would> have no effect whatsoever. The only thing that could have benefited from> that advice would have been his self-image.>>>> Alexander N. Sørnes>>
So we kick people who try to help, even though they may not know the proper answer? _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at last. Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL10062697...
Am Montag, 5. November 2007 10:39:32 schrieb Kai Blin:
On Monday 05 November 2007 06:12:42 Chris Morgan wrote:
I agree that this isn't something that should continue. Kicking should be reserved for people being disruptive. There is no reason to be anything other than polite to users asking for help.
How much time do you spend in #winehq? I know I don't spend much time there, but I know it's a thankless job. four out of five people who ask for help there seem to a) expect you to drop everything you're doing to help them b) insult the person trying to help if the suggestion doesn't work c) threaten to go back to windows and expect you care. d) leave before you get around to answer
I absolutely agree. Helping people in #winehq is a really bad job. Many people who go there seem to expect you to wave your magic wand to make their problem go away with zero effort from their side, and to make that instantly and free of charge. I did help in #winehq for about 6 months until I started working at codeweavers as now I'm paid to give support there.
Another aspect that was mentioned in Wineconf was that #winehq worked quite well until gamers started to use wine. The atmosphere in #winehq seems to be close to the general gaming atmosphere. Did you ever read the letters to the editor of a gaming magazine? I did that in two or 3, and I was shocked about that. Similarly the chat in an average counter-strike game(although cs is propably an extreme case).
What is also interesting that the atmosphere in #crossover is really sane. In the 18 months I've been in there, we had to ban only one person who asked me for a pirated copy of crossover. People there explain their problems well, and are good at following steps to fix them, and if it turns out that CrossOver is not the solution to their problems they do not threaten you. I've never seen a sentence like "I'll go to windows if you don't fix that instantly" or "Fix that ASAP or I'll get Parallels". This could be because we have separate means of support with dedicated support personal, but most people who go to crossover don't know about it even.
On Nov 5, 2007 11:51 AM, Stefan Dösinger stefandoesinger@gmx.at wrote:
I absolutely agree. Helping people in #winehq is a really bad job. Many people who go there seem to expect you to wave your magic wand to make their problem go away with zero effort from their side, and to make that instantly and free of charge.
Another aspect that was mentioned in Wineconf was that #winehq worked quite well until gamers started to use wine. The atmosphere in #winehq seems to be close to the general gaming atmosphere. Did you ever read the letters to the editor of a gaming magazine? I did that in two or 3, and I was shocked about that. Similarly the chat in an average counter-strike game(although cs is propably an extreme case).
Well, you're involved in the right parts of Wine to know that the demands of games are such that relatively small - I'm not even going to say bugs, but unimplemented/unimplementable features - can cause big usability problems over and above what you may see in a "normal" app, especially with the fact that support for the more office-y apps has had a lot more of a headstart with work done to it so far. You can see why an influx of gamers might seem to bring an influx of problems.
But I think that the attitude thing is less to do with gaming and more to do with the fact that Wine's getting better. When it did less, less well, people could take it as they found it expecting that there were going to be big problems. As it improves and grows, and the overall satisfaction with it rises, people start to pick on the problems more, and in harsher ways. It's like some kind of uncanny valley effect. (The Unhappy Valley? ;) )
I only mention it in this thread because it's a sad fact but I fear that as Wine improves, the tone of user support requests is going to get more like this and be more of a problem. Particularly among the section of the userbase, lets be charitable here, that are used to expressing themselves in such terms anyway. It doesn't EXCUSE it, but I think it behooves us to be ready for it.
On 11/5/07, Kai Blin kai.blin@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday 05 November 2007 06:12:42 Chris Morgan wrote:
I agree that this isn't something that should continue. Kicking should be reserved for people being disruptive. There is no reason to be anything other than polite to users asking for help.
How much time do you spend in #winehq? I know I don't spend much time there, but I know it's a thankless job. four out of five people who ask for help there seem to a) expect you to drop everything you're doing to help them b) insult the person trying to help if the suggestion doesn't work c) threaten to go back to windows and expect you care. d) leave before you get around to answer
I've spent a ton of time on #winehq helping users. Not so much time in the last few years though.
I like Vitaliy and I think he is a smart guy. I was the one that suggested he use Vitamin as his nick. What I don't like is that he takes his frustration out on users looking for help. User support is inherently difficult, users are typically not knowledgeable, hence their reason for asking for support. I just don't want to see people being kicked/banned because they are having trouble understanding or because they are resistant to taking actions that have been suggested.
If its frustrating to help users, take a break from it. If there are repetitive questions lets work on sharpening up the faq. There are other routes to take beyond escalating things verbally or kicking/banning people from the channel.
Allowing this kind of behavior to continue reflects poorly on us as a community.
This is true, I'm not going to argue about that. However, I think your conclusion is wrong.
If the general consensus is that we'd rather have Vitamin helping and we are ok with his behaviour then I'll support that. I'm just explaining my position on the matter.
Chris
Hi,
I agree that this isn't something that should continue. Kicking should be reserved for people being disruptive. There is no reason to be anything other than polite to users asking for help.
How much time do you spend in #winehq? I know I don't spend much time there, but I know it's a thankless job. four out of five people who ask for help there seem to a) expect you to drop everything you're doing to help them b) insult the person trying to help if the suggestion doesn't work c) threaten to go back to windows and expect you care. d) leave before you get around to answer
[...]
If the general consensus is that we'd rather have Vitamin helping and we are ok with his behaviour then I'll support that. I'm just explaining my position on the matter.
I think there is clear consensus that we all deeply appreciate the work that Vitaly is doing. There is also clear consensus that it would be great if more people could help out on #winehq (and on bugzilla, and so on). Further, I think there is even clear consensus that we all want to support Vitaly as he does an amazing job that few of us want to do.
However, I have to say that we have now had enough people complain that it seems reasonable to conclude that he is kicking / banning people too quickly, whatever the reason.
So, here is a proposal for consideration: 1. More known Wine developers keep a tab #winehq; we get them op access 2. We ask vitamin to run without op privileges, so he isn't tempted 3. When there is trouble, he has lots of people to ask for backup, and they can do the kicking.
In fact, wouldn't it be a nice way to show our support for Vitaly by letting him be the good guy and we agree to take on the role of bad guy?
I've added #winehq to my tab now, and if someone ops me, I'm willing to be a bad cop <grin>.
Cheers,
Jeremy
feba thatl wrote:
(09:32:56 PM) The topic for #winehq is:[long topic removed] (09:33:09 PM) ***vitamin fucking tired all knowning noobs! (09:33:15 PM) <Name removed, same person from #ubuntu>: wine: cannot find '/media/cdrom0/intro.exe' (09:33:15 PM) vitamin: usrl, you better leave (09:33:25 PM) usrl: Why? (09:33:32 PM) mode (+b *!*n=feba@*.hsd1.ks.comcast.net ) by vitamin (09:33:32 PM) You have been kicked by vitamin: (vitamin)
You omitted the reason:
Nov 04 20:30:56 <usrl> Gunn: that's an old version. Go to winehq.org and follow their instructions to add them to your repos. Nov 04 20:31:05 <vitamin> fester, how are you "loading" that program? Nov 04 20:31:09 <usrl> Gunn: it will be more up to date that way Nov 04 20:31:25 <vitamin> usrl, that's not a problem here Nov 04 20:31:37 <usrl> vitamin: I know, but it's helpful anyway.
You got into middle of conversation, suggested something that user does not need (as 0.9.47 and 0.9.48 are still broken for most Source games).
But since it seems that no one really gives a rip about what's going on on the channel, please whoever has higher access then me, remove me from the ops list. I don't want to explain myself every time some some one feels "wronged" and have to run to the mailing list to complain about it.
Vitaliy.
Hi! Please, people, live in love and peace :-)! I think I see what happened... Parts of the previous mail are swapped, it's better for the explanation.
Vitamin said:
You omitted the reason:
Nov 04 20:30:56 <usrl> Gunn: that's an old version. Go to winehq.org and follow their instructions to add them to your repos. Nov 04 20:31:05 <vitamin> fester, how are you "loading" that program? Nov 04 20:31:09 <usrl> Gunn: it will be more up to date that way Nov 04 20:31:25 <vitamin> usrl, that's not a problem here Nov 04 20:31:37 <usrl> vitamin: I know, but it's helpful anyway.
To <usrl>: This sentence was probably not clever. You are trying to explain things to somebody who knows probably much more than you (and did you REALLY know, that there is not a problem, as you write?). Some people are taking it too personally and they don't like it. Maybe vitamin knew that there are more regressions in those new versions (there are, I compiled wine this week and my son complained loudly, I had to restore .45 or something about it), so he thought that it's better not to recommend an update.
You got into middle of conversation, suggested something that user does not need (as 0.9.47 and 0.9.48 are still broken for most Source games).
The line above is very important. I think it had to be sent to the channel. Please imagine yourself saying:
(09:33:15 PM) vitamin: usrl, this will not help, as 0.9.47 and 0.9.48 are still broken for most Source games.
feba thatl wrote:
(09:32:56 PM) The topic for #winehq is:[long topic removed] (09:33:09 PM) ***vitamin fucking tired all knowning noobs! (09:33:15 PM) <Name removed, same person from #ubuntu>: wine: cannot find '/media/cdrom0/intro.exe' (09:33:15 PM) vitamin: usrl, you better leave (09:33:25 PM) usrl: Why? (09:33:32 PM) mode (+b *!*n=feba@*.hsd1.ks.comcast.net ) by vitamin
Banning instead of a single word of reply ? Please try to see the problem from the usrl's perspective: - He wanted to help somebody - He didn't know what you did know (see below) - You requested him to leave, without any explanation - When he asked why (exactly as I would do in his place), he was forcefully banned.
(09:33:32 PM) You have been kicked by vitamin: (vitamin)
But since it seems that no one really gives a rip about what's going on on the channel, please whoever has higher access then me, remove me from the ops list. I don't want to explain myself every time some some one feels "wronged" and have to run to the mailing list to complain about it.
No NO no :-). I think you are not bad, at all!!! I can exactly imagine what did you feel - that you were doing your best to explain things to an user and that usrl's entry and suggestions were wrong from your point of view. But please try to imagine that you are a policeman, a lost driver is asking you how to drive to a supermarket, and another person is trying to explain it too, but he's wrong. Would you put the second person (and a few seconds later the first one too) to a jail ? I hope no :-). And with your admin rights it's similar. You have them to protect the channel from all unwanted traffic, keep it going well and smooth. So the only thing you can maybe learn from those cases (if you want) is that you can wait for a second, make a deep breath, and think twice, what are the users REALLY trying to do, before you decide to kick/ban them.
Vitaliy.
With regards, Pavel Troller
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Alexander Nicolaysen Sørnes -
Chris Howe -
Chris Morgan -
EA Durbin -
feba thatl -
Hans Leidekker -
Jeremy White -
Kai Blin -
Martin Bosner -
Pavel Troller -
Stefan Dösinger -
Tom Wickline -
Vitaliy Margolen