On 20 Mar 2003, Jeremy Newman wrote:
[I've Cc'ed wine-devel since I've just reposted the questions there]
On Thu, 2003-03-20 at 15:57, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote:
I was looking at the main page of the new WineHQ, and I was thinking of the following changes:
- The menu at the bottom of the main "About" box is mainly duplicating the the left-side menu. Let's get rid of it.
In this case I think the duplication is good. From a newbie aspect, the first place they will read is the text on the home page. And the extra clarification helps.
This is a good point, but I feel that the benefit is not worth the cost. It takes up a lot of space, and really the _same_ options are available on the _same_ page. What kind of newbie are we talking about that can read "News" in one place, but can't read the exact same word 2 inches to the right?
We are light years clean / simpler navigation than the old site, lets not exagerate.
- Move the theme selector somewhere else, like another box on on the left, below "Developemnt"
Yeah, for this beta, its there for now, I think I will make a "Preferences" link somewhere in the nav.
That's cool.
- In place of the "Change Theme" box, let's have an "Announcements" box (like the KDE/GNOME/etc pages) where we can place the latest and greatest things, such as Wine releases, News releases, interviews, etc.
See, that would be duplication. We already have news. It's WWN. Adding announcements that don't get updated as often as WWN seems lame. Leave that to other news sites.
I beg to differ. WWN is more like a magazine. It is wandeerful, and has a good purpose, but that it's not for announcement. People don't wait a month to read the latest news, they watch TV or read the newspaper.
The WWN appears weekly (sometime lest often), and is concerned mainly with development topics). An Announcement section would be updated whenever something important (from a user standpoint) happens: -- A new Wine version is released -- A new WWN is released -- An important event happened in the community
So the two differ in all aspects (WWN vs. Announcements) 1. Audience: Developers vs. Users 2. Update Strategy: Weekly vs. Real Time 3. Content Focus: Development Issues vs. Events
And the proof is in the pudding: most major project sites have different sections for the two. See www.gnome.org, www.kde.org, www.gimp.org, etc.
For better or worse, people _expect_ things organized in a certain way. Like the "File" menu to the left. Even if we think our idea are better, we should follow the Principle of Least Surprise in these matters, unless we can make a _strong_ case against it. In this instance, it seems to me it makes sense to follow the status quo.
See, that would be duplication. We already have news. It's WWN. Adding announcements that don't get updated as often as WWN seems lame. Leave that to other news sites.
I beg to differ. WWN is more like a magazine. It is wandeerful, and has a good purpose, but that it's not for announcement. People don't wait a month to read the latest news, they watch TV or read the newspaper.
Um, Dimi, I am not sure what would be more clear than the proposed 'Latest Release' box right there; that's the latest important news. Right below it are all of the most current headlines, nicely organized through the power of WWN and the very nice work of Brian.
I can't imagine what else would go in an 'announcements' box down in the center of the page? And who would write it?
My $0.02.
Jer
On 21 Mar 2003, Jeremy White wrote:
Um, Dimi, I am not sure what would be more clear than the proposed 'Latest Release' box right there; that's the latest important news. Right below it are all of the most current headlines, nicely organized through the power of WWN and the very nice work of Brian.
You are avoiding the issue. As I was saying, WWN is great. But it has a different focus/usage pattern. Both magazines (Time, etc.) and news services (CNN, Reuters, etc.) have their purpose, and they are not mutually exclusive. Also, read again through the WWNs: they are 99% directed to developers. And this is GOOD! But we need an announcement place for important events. Again, the status quo is to have such a thing: what is the argument _against_ it?
I can't imagine what else would go in an 'announcements' box down in the center of the page? And who would write it?
When the KDE has a release, they do a press release which would go there. When a WWN is published, a small note would go in there. When Codeweavers, or Transgaming release a product, a pointer to the press release will go in there. It's like a community billboard. These should go there near real time, not wait a week for a new issue of WWN. When the site is updated with a new WWN, or release, or what have you, someone will make an entry there.
Some examples: o http://www.kde.org/ (Latest News) o http://www.gnome.org/ (FootNotes News) o http://www.gimp.org/ (Fresh from the Press) o http://www.xfree86.org/ (News) o http://www.samba.org/ (Samba News) o etc., etc...
The list can go on and on. What project does NOT have such a news area? I would note that most of these projects also have a WWN-like publication. As such, as a matter of policy, I don't think I should be arguing for it, but the argument should be against it if we don't want it. I think it's needed.
The list can go on and on. What project does NOT have such a news area? I would note that most of these projects also have a WWN-like publication. As such, as a matter of policy, I don't think I should be arguing for it, but the argument should be against it if we don't want it. I think it's needed.
Excuse me, but most of those sites *only* have a news feed, they do not have both a journal and an announcements section. Gimp and Samba are two clear examples; I haven't looked much anywhere else.
They all have a common, high profile, source for news and announcements. That's exactly what WWN is.
You somehow seem to feel that our users are stupid and can't wade through announcements that don't pertain to them.
Further, Gnome and KDE are rotten examples, because they are really umbrella projects - they contain many sub projects within them. So, for example, it's useful to capture the info regarding Evolution 1.2.3, and Galeon 1.2.9. We do *not* have such a constant stream of different news sources.
Jer
On 21 Mar 2003, Jeremy White wrote:
Excuse me, but most of those sites *only* have a news feed, they do not have both a journal and an announcements section.
No, they do have WWN-like publications (see GNOME, KDE) and when they get released an announcement is made.
They all have a common, high profile, source for news and announcements. That's exactly what WWN is.
No, you are missing the point. I've repetead several time why the scope and focus and target audience is different for a "Latest News" and WWN. Same as monthly magazine vs. news channel. Please reply to those, ignoring them every time will not make for a very informative discussion :)
You somehow seem to feel that our users are stupid and can't wade through announcements that don't pertain to them.
What are you talking about here? It's not only a matter of content, as I previously explained. By the same logic maybe Alexandre should not send out the email announcement when a release is made, but instead we should just make a note in WWN that a release happend last week...
Further, Gnome and KDE are rotten examples, because they are really umbrella projects - they contain many sub projects within them. So, for example, it's useful to capture the info regarding Evolution 1.2.3, and Galeon 1.2.9. We do *not* have such a constant stream of different news sources.
We are very much an umbrella project. From a technical standpoint virtually every DLL or app is a separate project. We have over a hundred of those.
I would also like to reiterate: it seems to me that it's not for me to argue for it, but for you to argue against it if you feel strongly. We went through this before, and the conclusion was that we should stick close to status quo unless we have overriding objections. It is very clear to me what the status quo is.
No, you are missing the point. I've repetead several time why the scope and focus and target audience is different for a "Latest News" and WWN. Same as monthly magazine vs. news channel. Please reply to those, ignoring them every time will not make for a very informative discussion :)
Perhaps I am missing the point. I have taken your statements to mean:
1. There is news that occurs more frequently or more urgently than the schedule of WWN allows (news channel, not monthly magazine).
2. There is a flavor of news that appeals to a different audience than what WWN appeals to.
Is that essentially your point, or have I missed it?
I would also like to reiterate: it seems to me that it's not for me to argue for it, but for you to argue against it if you feel strongly. We went through this before, and the conclusion was that we should stick close to status quo unless we have overriding objections. It is very clear to me what the status quo is.
I'm sorry, I am befuddled by this closing paragraph. If our default is to "stick close to status quo" then staying with the WWN would be the status quo. How is that it is not for you to argue for a change to the status quo, but instead I have to argue against any proposed change to the status quo?
It strikes me that it is appropriate for you to make an argument for a change to the status quo. In fact, you have argued for quite a number of changes, many of which were, imo, quite good.
I think you have made an argument for a change - you'd like to add a 'Latest News' section.
The way this works, I thought, is you get to propose the idea, and I get to belittle it <grin>.
Seriously, I just do not where this 'latest news' will come from and who will maintain it. I also do not see how it will be significantly different from the WWN, which I think is quite nicely done.
Other than that, I think it's a great idea <grin>. I have to admit, I could see that it might be fun to have a spot to highlight the fun project of the week, or some other tidbit we want to highlight from time to time.
Cheers,
Jer
On March 21, 2003 09:08 pm, Jeremy White wrote:
Perhaps I am missing the point. I have taken your statements to mean:
1. There is news that occurs more frequently or more urgently than the schedule of WWN allows (news channel, not monthly magazine). 2. There is a flavor of news that appeals to a different audience than what WWN appeals to.Is that essentially your point, or have I missed it?
Yes, this is where I'm comming from, I just don't understand now where our disagreement is. :)
I'm sorry, I am befuddled by this closing paragraph.
And rightfully so, my bad. What I meant by "status quo" is industry "status quo". A better term would be common practice. So let me restate: the common practice of virtually all big projects is to have a "Headline News" section on the first page, which is updated real time. And my argument was that histroy and experience shows that it's better to stick to common practice unless you have overriding concerns. I see no such concerns here. In fact, I see a strong need for such a forum. I've tried to explain in my other message to Jeremy why I see such a need. Simply put, I _love_ such a facility on all the sites that have it, and it hooks me in and go there regularly to check it our. And I am certain most people like it as well: their proliferation *proves* beyond what we can ever argue here.
And the perfect example is LWN (http://lwn.net) which started as a weekly publication only, but by popular demand they added a daily/real-time/a-la-Slashdot version soon. Please note that they kept the weekly publication as well (by popular demand) because the serve _different_ purposes. Yes, most if not all the headlines will end up synthesized in the weekly publication, but I've heard no one complaining that that means duplication.
Seriously, I just do not where this 'latest news' will come from and who will maintain it. I also do not see how it will be significantly different from the WWN, which I think is quite nicely done.
Other than that, I think it's a great idea <grin>. I have to admit, I could see that it might be fun to have a spot to highlight the fun project of the week, or some other tidbit we want to highlight from time to time.
Exactly! Let's see where the content will come from: -- When Brian releases a WWN, he writes a 1-2 line announcement highlighting the important stuff, and submits it together with the WWN issue. Something along the lines of Slashback. -- When Alexandre releases a version, all we have to do is to take the "WHAT'S NEW" section, e.g:
WHAT'S NEW with Wine-20030318: (see ChangeLog for details) - Many Direct Sound improvements. - File locking support. - Progress on kernel/ntdll dll separation. - Lots of bug fixes.
-- When Crossweavers or Transgamings release a new product, a link to the press release will go there, plus a little blurb provided by the company
-- New Press notices go in
-- And most importantly, selected news submitted by the uses, just like on Slashdot. Not high volume, 0-4 a week. Some examples: * Access works * Mono uses Wine * wxWindows ported to Winelib * Fun Project of the week * Mozilla ported to Winelib * New UI Status page * A new version of the 0.9 TODO * Sun JVM working under Wine * etc., etc., etc.
Now tell me that would not be cool! :P
On Sat, 2003-03-22 at 02:47, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote:
On March 21, 2003 09:08 pm, Jeremy White wrote:
Perhaps I am missing the point. I have taken your statements to mean:
1. There is news that occurs more frequently or more urgently than the schedule of WWN allows (news channel, not monthly magazine). 2. There is a flavor of news that appeals to a different audience than what WWN appeals to.Is that essentially your point, or have I missed it?
Yes, this is where I'm comming from, I just don't understand now where our disagreement is. :)
Good, I'm glad I understand it, and I'm further glad our disagreement is straightforward - because I think both points are wrong. <grin>.
[snipped your clarification; I now understand you are arguing for your perceived 'best practices']
[snipped your list of proposed cool things in an announcement box].
I think that, today, we do not have any of the news items you describe. Your are imagining that Brian or Jeremy has more time to repost pieces of the WWN to a different box. afaik, they don't.
You say "we'll just snag pieces of Alexandres release notices". Who's we?
Now, if we had a volunteer PR person that was coordinating and driving PR for Wine, and *that person* wanted and was willing to maintain and keep fresh such a section, then I would be persuaded.
Without such a driving force, I believe that a 'latest news' box would be either a stale and obsolete piece of screen real estate, or useless rehashing of the existing WWN content.
Cheers,
Jer
On March 23, 2003 12:04 am, Jeremy White wrote:
[snipped your clarification; I now understand you are arguing for your perceived 'best practices']
Sorry, they are not perceived. I think I've proved that by now. Again, please go look at: o http://www.kde.org/ (Latest News) o http://www.gnome.org/ (FootNotes News) o http://www.gimp.org/ (Fresh from the Press) o http://www.xfree86.org/ (News) o http://www.samba.org/ (Samba News) And so many others.
[snipped your list of proposed cool things in an announcement box].
I think that, today, we do not have any of the news items you describe. Your are imagining that Brian or Jeremy has more time to repost pieces of the WWN to a different box. afaik, they don't.
I think you've snipped them because most of them were things that were news worthy, and did happen in the community recently. So no, the news items are here *today*. Maybe we don't have the editor, but how can we have one when there's nowhere to post?!? This is more a technical issue. We need a way to easily post these headlines, and then we can give access to that facility to a few editors. But how do you expect to have headline news posted if there's nowhere to post?!? Most of the things I've listed had been sent to the mailing lists, so definitely there is interest -- if there wasn't people wouldn't have bothered to post.
So let's not confuse issues. You say we need someone to step forward as an editor for the headlines. Let's make that call. But we can do that if we say 'NO' to the very idea.
I think a different approach is needed: Yes, we'd love to have a 'Latest News' section, but we need someone to step forward and take care of it. Guys, this is a great opportunity to help with Wine, it's high profile, and doesn't require coding skills!
Agreed? If so, let's post a call for action on the mailing list, and see if anyone volunteers.
On March 23, 2003 12:36 am, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote:
I think that, today, we do not have any of the news items you describe. Your are imagining that Brian or Jeremy has more time to repost pieces of the WWN to a different box. afaik, they don't.
I think you've snipped them because most of them were things that were news worthy, and did happen in the community recently.
I've meant to put a BIG smiley here, of course. Sorry, I'm not *that* confrontational, really! :)
Dimitrie O. Paun wrote:
On March 23, 2003 12:04 am, Jeremy White wrote:
[snipped your clarification; I now understand you are arguing for your perceived 'best practices']
Sorry, they are not perceived. I think I've proved that by now. Again, please go look at: o http://www.kde.org/ (Latest News) o http://www.gnome.org/ (FootNotes News) o http://www.gimp.org/ (Fresh from the Press) o http://www.xfree86.org/ (News) o http://www.samba.org/ (Samba News) And so many others.
Pronouncing something to be true does not make it so. Having a 'fresh' section with news is a common practice, yes. Having *more than one* is extremely rare. Of your 5 examples, only Gnome and KDE have that.
I would therefore argue that your suggestion for both a latest news and a wwn is against best practices.
I think a different approach is needed: Yes, we'd love to have a 'Latest News' section, but we need someone to step forward and take care of it. Guys, this is a great opportunity to help with Wine, it's high profile, and doesn't require coding skills!
Agreed? If so, let's post a call for action on the mailing list, and see if anyone volunteers.
I enjoy sparring with you, Dimi (and yes, I do it with a smile, so no offense taken or intented <grin>; it'd be nicer to do it over a beer, but then that's the Wineconf issue). But, the honest truth is I really don't care all that much.
I'm just responding to Jer's complaint that seemed just and true: "Dimi wants me to add a section that I will be forced to maintain if I don't want the site to look like crap. I just won't do it."
Brian has told me off list that he'd be willing to be the collective PR person (i.e. take in announcements and such) and post them more frequently (he already collates more than once a week). However, to do that, he needs some tools. He has trouble with his CVS connection, so he has requested that someone build him a web page where he can enter news items that go into the WWN.
For example, I could see that the XML for a news item could have a 'announcement' flag, and then that could be harvested and put into an announcements area; I think you'd also want to tone down the WWN box a bit on the right.
So, here is the call for a volunteer: someone work with Brian to help him get WWN stuff committed to CVS, a tool to let folks submit entries for annoucncing, and a tool to commit entries more rapidly than he does, and give Jer a tool to scrape the XML and craft an announcements section.
That's the patch that's needed to try this, imo. (Note that some of it is a patch, some of it may simply be working with Brian).
Jer
On March 23, 2003 03:28 pm, Jeremy White wrote:
Pronouncing something to be true does not make it so.
Correct. Also, refusing to accept evidence, and invoking irrelevant differences doesn't make it false either. :)
Having a 'fresh' section with news is a common practice, yes. Having *more than one* is extremely rare. Of your 5 examples, only Gnome and KDE have that.
All this is irrelevant of course -- I've asked you to produce those important projects that don't have a "Latest News". Some may also have a synthesis publication, but they all have a news section.
Ohh... I've had too much fun arguing this :) It was all in good fun, I'll stop here. <g>
I enjoy sparring with you, Dimi (and yes, I do it with a smile, so no offense taken or intented <grin>; it'd be nicer to do it over a beer, but then that's the Wineconf issue).
Indeed. And the same goes here -- I do get caught in the discussion easily, but I don't take thing personally :) Here's for a virtual handshake!
Brian has told me off list that he'd be willing to be the collective PR person (i.e. take in announcements and such) and post them more frequently (he already collates more than once a week).
Brain is The Man! We do need a PR person, the time for 0.9/1.0 is approaching, as such we need press releases, etc.
However, to do that, he needs some tools. He has trouble with his CVS connection, so he has requested that someone build him a web page where he can enter news items that go into the WWN.
It seems fair.
So, here is the call for a volunteer: someone work with Brian to help him get WWN stuff committed to CVS, a tool to let folks submit entries for annoucncing, and a tool to commit entries more rapidly than he does, and give Jer a tool to scrape the XML and craft an announcements section.
For starters, how about: -- tool for submitting announcments: email to the editor (Brian) -- tool for committing announcments: a non-public web page -- tool for scraping XML: will produce the XML needed to render the Announcement box. He can then use this to render the HTML for the box.
I have basic design in mind, simple and elegant (:P), I just need a bit of help with the PHP side of things (very simple stuff), as I have 0 experience with it.
So I guess I volunteer...
* Dimitrie O. Paun (dpaun@rogers.com) wrote:
On March 23, 2003 03:28 pm, Jeremy White wrote:
[snip]
Brian has told me off list that he'd be willing to be the collective PR person (i.e. take in announcements and such) and post them more frequently (he already collates more than once a week).
Brain is The Man!
Is that from Aristotle?
Cheers, Geoff
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Dimitrie O. Paun -
Dimitrie O. Paun -
Geoff Thorpe -
Jeremy White