imagicos

[EA Durbin]

I just saw this linux distribution on distrowatch. They claim to be able to run all microsoft products. Interesting.
http://www.imagicos.com/
http://www.imagicos.com/microsoft.html

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[Ben Klein]

2009/2/7 EA Durbin :
> I just saw this linux distribution on distrowatch. They claim to be able to
> run all microsoft products. Interesting.
> http://www.imagicos.com/
> http://www.imagicos.com/microsoft.html

No they don't. It says "almost every" on the home page and "most" on
the "Microsoft" page.

Assuming they're talking about Wine, someone should tell them that
they're wrong anyway. "quite a lot of entirely win32 applications",
maybe. Almost certainly not "most".

Ooh, just spotted some interesting items on their "tested applications" list.
- DirectX
- DirectX 6
- DirectX 7
- DirectX 8
- DirectX 9

How about we just completely ignore these idiots?

[EA Durbin]

That and I can't the source code anywhere on their site.
> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 12:16:09 +1100
> Subject: Re: imagicos
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> CC: [e-mail]
>
> 2009/2/7 EA Durbin :
> > I just saw this linux distribution on distrowatch. They claim to be able to
> > run all microsoft products. Interesting.
> > http://www.imagicos.com/
> > http://www.imagicos.com/microsoft.html
>
> No they don't. It says "almost every" on the home page and "most" on
> the "Microsoft" page.
>
> Assuming they're talking about Wine, someone should tell them that
> they're wrong anyway. "quite a lot of entirely win32 applications",
> maybe. Almost certainly not "most".
>
> Ooh, just spotted some interesting items on their "tested applications" list.
> - DirectX
> - DirectX 6
> - DirectX 7
> - DirectX 8
> - DirectX 9
>
> How about we just completely ignore these idiots?

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[IneedAname]

On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 19:18:04 -0600
EA Durbin  wrote:
> That and I can't the source code anywhere on their site.

Here is a copy of what I have send to then.
> I want the source code of the version(s) of Wine you package with your OS.
> If you have not read Wine's license now is the time to do so.

I have downloaded the copy of wine thats on there site, Its wine version 0.9.46!
If you read the version in full you will see its copied from the Ubuntu repo.

This whole thing would be funny if it was not for:

Read cost.
http://www.imagicos.com/why.html

Rip off!
http://www.imagicos.com/get.html

After a bit more reading it looks like they buy a copy of Crossover games and add some open source software and sell it on at 3 times the price.

After all that I feel sick.

[Ben Klein]

2009/2/7 IneedAname :
> On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 19:18:04 -0600
> EA Durbin  wrote:
> > That and I can't the source code anywhere on their site.
>
> Here is a copy of what I have send to then.
> > I want the source code of the version(s) of Wine you package with your OS.
> > If you have not read Wine's license now is the time to do so.
>
> I have downloaded the copy of wine thats on there site, Its wine version 0.9.46!
> If you read the version in full you will see its copied from the Ubuntu repo.
>
> This whole thing would be funny if it was not for:
>
> Read cost.
> http://www.imagicos.com/why.html

"The cost is justified because it can run a bunch of Windows apps that
you shouldn't run because we supply alternatives with it." Great, just
great.
> Rip off!
> http://www.imagicos.com/get.html
>
> After a bit more reading it looks like they buy a copy of Crossover games and add some open source software and sell it on at 3 times the price.

I wonder if Codeweavers would be happy with these guys reselling the
Crossover suite ...
> After all that I feel sick.

[nn]

F.Y.I

Re: Alternative to Vista, iMagic OS
http://www.pcreview.co.uk/forums/thread-3622082.php

MiOS for free!, MiOS will soon be for free
http://www.joejoe.org/forum/index.php?s=cfb4dd58b56fe0a1f7a88fba92e4b16d&...

MiOS Developer Preview, Request your self to Test!
http://www.joejoe.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=17470&st=20&p=219000...  "I am Carlos La Borde, the creator of MiOS"

http://whois.domaintools.com/imagicos.com

Make Yahoo!7 your homepage and win a trip to the Quiksilver Pro. Find out more

[Tom Wickline]

Don't you think you guys are being kinda tough on a CodeWeavers
reseller? and how the HELL is it a rip off? a single copy of CrossOver
pro cost $69.95 retail.. And your getting the OS and support with the OS.

So they bundle a older version of Wine, maybe it's the version that was
current
during their testing cycle for the OS release.
> From what Ive read on this thread all your going to do is run resellers away

from
CodeWeavers and small distro's away from bundling Wine.

Clap, Clap, Clap

I hope you're all happy now!

Maybe if you tried to be more constructive and less destructive you would
accomplish
allot more then what you have with this Rant, flame, troll, fubar thread.

Tom

On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 11:23 AM, IneedAname wrote:
> Read cost.
> http://www.imagicos.com/why.html
>
> Rip off!
> http://www.imagicos.com/get.html
>
> After a bit more reading it looks like they buy a copy of Crossover games
> and add some open source software and sell it on at 3 times the price.
>
> After all that I feel sick.

[Ben Klein]

2009/2/8 Tom Wickline :
> And your getting the OS and support with the OS.

Wrong. Read the license. They offer absolutely no support for the OS.
You're buying the binaries and that's it. (This could be a violation
of GPL too)
> From what Ive read on this thread all your going to do is run resellers
> away from CodeWeavers and small distro's away from bundling Wine.

I would have thought that small distros would be the worst people to
bundle Wine, especially if they charge for it under the illusion of
support. At least the larger distros have the resources to do limited
support of running apps in Wine before sending them off to winehq.
> Clap, Clap, Clap
>
> I hope you're all happy now!

No matter what you think, this particular distro looks very shifty to
me. Possible license violations (not that I'm an expert, and I'd
welcome an expert opinion).
> Maybe if you tried to be more constructive and less destructive you
> would accomplish allot more then what you have with this Rant,
> flame, troll, fubar thread.

It's still amusing that they list Mac OS X in their "tested Windows
applications" list ...
> Tom
>
> On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 11:23 AM, IneedAname 
> wrote:
> > Read cost.
> > http://www.imagicos.com/why.html
> >
> > Rip off!
> > http://www.imagicos.com/get.html
> >
> > After a bit more reading it looks like they buy a copy of Crossover games
> > and add some open source software and sell it on at 3 times the price.
> >
> > After all that I feel sick.

[Tom Wickline]

On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 10:59 PM, Ben Klein  wrote:
> 2009/2/8 Tom Wickline :
> > And your getting the OS and support with the OS.
>
> Wrong. Read the license. They offer absolutely no support for the OS.
> You're buying the binaries and that's it. (This could be a violation
> of GPL too)

They have a support forum, im sure they would help people with issues.
> > From what Ive read on this thread all your going to do is run resellers
> > away from CodeWeavers and small distro's away from bundling Wine.
>
> I would have thought that small distros would be the worst people to
> bundle Wine, especially if they charge for it under the illusion of
> support. At least the larger distros have the resources to do limited
> support of running apps in Wine before sending them off to winehq.
> > Clap, Clap, Clap
> >
> > I hope you're all happy now!
>
> No matter what you think, this particular distro looks very shifty to
> me. Possible license violations (not that I'm an expert, and I'd
> welcome an expert opinion).

What's shitty about it? they are a small distro who is bundling CrossOver
and Wine
and annoucing that they provide  support for a select  number of Windows
applications
and games..  Seems to me you would be delighted by this publisity of Wine.

Also, IneedAname CrossOver Pro cost $69.95 up until yesterday, then it went
on Valintines
Day sale and was ruducet to $59.95 ...

See:
http://www.wine-reviews.net/wine-reviews/cxoffice-linux/codeweavers-valentin...

And even if they are in some way vilolating the GPL by not hosting the
operating systems source
that has absoloutly nothing to do with Wine... You guy's need to take that
up with gnu.org

Tom

[David Gerard]

2009/2/7 Tom Wickline :
> And even if they are in some way vilolating the GPL by not hosting the
> operating systems source
> that has absoloutly nothing to do with Wine... You guy's need to take that
> up with gnu.org

No, that's everyone's business.

- d.

[Ben Klein]

2009/2/8 Tom Wickline :
> On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 10:59 PM, Ben Klein  wrote:
> > 2009/2/8 Tom Wickline :
> > > And your getting the OS and support with the OS.
> >
> > Wrong. Read the license. They offer absolutely no support for the OS.
> > You're buying the binaries and that's it. (This could be a violation
> > of GPL too)
>
> They have a support forum, im sure they would help people with issues.

Their license actually says that they don't provide support.
http://www.imagicos.com/get.html
7: GENERAL
"Licensor has no obligation to provide support, maintenance, upgrades,
modifications or new releases under this Agreement."

Argue the semantics of "obligation" if you will, but their license
actually says they're not selling support at all.
> > No matter what you think, this particular distro looks very shifty to
> > me. Possible license violations (not that I'm an expert, and I'd
> > welcome an expert opinion).
>
> What's shitty about it?

Shifty. With an 'f'. AKA "dodgy", AKA "don't trust them to open a can of beans"
> they are a small distro who is bundling CrossOver
> and Wine
> and annoucing that they provide  support for a select  number of Windows
> applications
> and games..  Seems to me you would be delighted by this publisity of Wine.

What publicity? The fact that it was brought to the attention of
wine-devel? Is anyone ELSE talking about it?
> Also, IneedAname CrossOver Pro cost $69.95 up until yesterday, then it went
> on Valintines
> Day sale and was ruducet to $59.95 ...
>
> See:
> http://www.wine-reviews.net/wine-reviews/cxoffice-linux/codeweavers-valentin...

Part of the problem with iMagic is they don't actually tell you what
you get. They make a reference to Wine here, a reference to Crossover
there. Someone suggested that they ship Crossover Games. Isn't that
cheaper than Pro?
> And even if they are in some way vilolating the GPL by not hosting the
> operating systems source

Not the problem.
1) Source of individual apps can be retrieved from appropriate
websites. As long as the websites are referenced in the distro's
documentation of each app, they're within the grounds of GPL.
2) They don't have to license their own code written for the distro under GPL

What it seems to me is that they are selling binaries, not support.
They could be selling licenses (for Crossover, mp3 etc), but that's
not a matter for us to resolve. If it is determined that what they are
selling is binaries, then I'm almost certain that is a violation of
GPL.
> From memory, GPL allows you to charge for the cost of delivering the

software (e.g. CD media, postage), but not the binaries themselves.
> that has absoloutly nothing to do with Wine... You guy's need to take that
> up with gnu.org

I've asked FSF licensing people for their opinion. It could be
interesting, but it's likely a complicated case due to poor
information provided by iMagic and shipping with multiple commercial
licenses.
> Tom

[Michael Karcher]

Am Sonntag, den 08.02.2009, 02:57 +1100 schrieb Ben Klein:
> > And even if they are in some way vilolating the GPL by not hosting the
> > operating systems source
>
> Not the problem.
> - Source of individual apps can be retrieved from appropriate
>
> websites. As long as the websites are referenced in the distro's
> documentation of each app, they're within the grounds of GPL.

First, I am not a lawyer. But the GPL (version 2) says that you have to
provide the source code *yourself*. Either by shipping it together with
the binaries (section 3a) or by giving you a written offer that they
will provide the sourcode to *anyone* who asks for it for a cost not
higher than the costs of performing the distribution (section 3b). If
you are a noncommercial entity (which iMagic OS definitely is not),
passing on the written offer is also enough (section 3c). Finally, if
you distribute by offering a download, you have to offer a source
download *from the same place* (last paragraph of section 3).
> - They don't have to license their own code written for the distro under GPL

Correct. But only if they don't link GPL libraries.
> What it seems to me is that they are selling binaries, not support.
> They could be selling licenses (for Crossover, mp3 etc), but that's
> not a matter for us to resolve. If it is determined that what they are
> selling is binaries, then I'm almost certain that is a violation of
> GPL.

No, it is not. You may charge as much as you want for binaries of GPL
programs. You just have to allow your clients to pass it on for free.
> From memory, GPL allows you to charge for the cost of delivering the
> software (e.g. CD media, postage), but not the binaries themselves.

This just applies to the source code.

Regards,
  Michael Karcher

[Peter Bortas]

On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 4:57 PM, Ben Klein  wrote:
> What it seems to me is that they are selling binaries, not support.
> They could be selling licenses (for Crossover, mp3 etc), but that's
> not a matter for us to resolve. If it is determined that what they are
> selling is binaries, then I'm almost certain that is a violation of
> GPL.
>
> From memory, GPL allows you to charge for the cost of delivering the
> software (e.g. CD media, postage), but not the binaries themselves.

GPL allows you to skin a buyer for any amount you like. As long as you
tell them where the source code is. They also do not need to give you
the source. Only the buyers of the product.

[Hin-Tak Leung]

--- On Sat, 7/2/09, Peter Bortas  wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 4:57 PM, Ben Klein
>  wrote:
> > What it seems to me is that they are selling binaries,
>
> not support.
> > They could be selling licenses (for Crossover, mp3
>
> etc), but that's
> > not a matter for us to resolve. If it is determined
>
> that what they are
> > selling is binaries, then I'm almost certain that
>
> is a violation of
> > GPL.
> >
> > From memory, GPL allows you to charge for the cost of
>
> delivering the
> > software (e.g. CD media, postage), but not the
>
> binaries themselves.
>
> GPL allows you to skin a buyer for any amount you like. As
> long as you
> tell them where the source code is. They also do not need
> to give you
> the source. Only the buyers of the product.

That's right - GPL allows you to charge for binaries, and any amount for that matter. GPL just means who ever received the binaries are also entitled to the source code, and *also* the right to sell both onward - and possibly as a competitor to you - so you cannot charge 'unreasonable' amounts.

[Remco]

On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 11:12 PM, Hin-Tak Leung  wrote:
> That's right - GPL allows you to charge for binaries, and any amount for that matter. GPL just means who ever received the binaries are also entitled to the source code, and *also* the right to sell both onward - and possibly as a competitor to you - so you cannot charge 'unreasonable' amounts.

Exactly. I find this whole thread a bit weird. Isn't it great that
(commercial) Linux distributions are shipping Wine? Those exaggerated
claims of compatibility are just marketing talk. I've seen worse.

Remco

[Ben Klein]

2009/2/9 Remco :
> On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 11:12 PM, Hin-Tak Leung  wrote:
> > That's right - GPL allows you to charge for binaries, and any amount for that matter. GPL just means who ever received the binaries are also entitled to the source code, and *also* the right to sell both onward - and possibly as a competitor to you - so you cannot charge 'unreasonable' amounts.

A few people have cleared this up. A misunderstanding of the terms on my part.
> Exactly. I find this whole thread a bit weird. Isn't it great that
> (commercial) Linux distributions are shipping Wine? Those exaggerated
> claims of compatibility are just marketing talk. I've seen worse.

Marketing? More like outright lies. If only they were based in
Australia, where I know for a fact we have truth in advertising laws.
I have no idea about other countries :)
> Remco

[Austin English]

On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Ben Klein  wrote:
> 2009/2/7 EA Durbin :
> > I just saw this linux distribution on distrowatch. They claim to be able to
> > run all microsoft products. Interesting.
> > http://www.imagicos.com/
> > http://www.imagicos.com/microsoft.html
>
> No they don't. It says "almost every" on the home page and "most" on
> the "Microsoft" page.
>
> Assuming they're talking about Wine, someone should tell them that
> they're wrong anyway. "quite a lot of entirely win32 applications",
> maybe. Almost certainly not "most".
>
> Ooh, just spotted some interesting items on their "tested applications" list.
> - DirectX
> - DirectX 6
> - DirectX 7
> - DirectX 8
> - DirectX 9
>
> How about we just completely ignore these idiots?

Also:
# Internet Explorer 5.0 and 5.5
# Internet Explorer 6.0
...
# iPod Support in iTunes 4.0
...
# Mac OS X
# Mac OS X Audio Input Support

[Ben Klein]

2009/2/7 Austin English :
> On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Ben Klein  wrote:
> > 2009/2/7 EA Durbin :
> > > I just saw this linux distribution on distrowatch. They claim to be able to
> > > run all microsoft products. Interesting.
> > > http://www.imagicos.com/
> > > http://www.imagicos.com/microsoft.html
> >
> > No they don't. It says "almost every" on the home page and "most" on
> > the "Microsoft" page.
> >
> > Assuming they're talking about Wine, someone should tell them that
> > they're wrong anyway. "quite a lot of entirely win32 applications",
> > maybe. Almost certainly not "most".
> >
> > Ooh, just spotted some interesting items on their "tested applications" list.
> > - DirectX
> > - DirectX 6
> > - DirectX 7
> > - DirectX 8
> > - DirectX 9
> >
> > How about we just completely ignore these idiots?
>
> Also:
> # Internet Explorer 5.0 and 5.5
> # Internet Explorer 6.0

I've heard of some success with 6.0 (without crappy
winedoors/ies4linux stuff), so I didn't comment.
> # iPod Support in iTunes 4.0

Hmm, that seems unlikely
> # Mac OS X
> # Mac OS X Audio Input Support

Well spotted, Austin!

Maybe they're talking about a VM, not Wine ... in which case, you'd
have to get a copy of Windows, which defeats the purpose of being
proud about their Windows app support.

[Austin English]

On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 7:30 PM, Ben Klein  wrote:
> 2009/2/7 Austin English :
> > On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Ben Klein  wrote:
> > > 2009/2/7 EA Durbin :
> > > > I just saw this linux distribution on distrowatch. They claim to be able to
> > > > run all microsoft products. Interesting.
> > > > http://www.imagicos.com/
> > > > http://www.imagicos.com/microsoft.html
> > >
> > > No they don't. It says "almost every" on the home page and "most" on
> > > the "Microsoft" page.
> > >
> > > Assuming they're talking about Wine, someone should tell them that
> > > they're wrong anyway. "quite a lot of entirely win32 applications",
> > > maybe. Almost certainly not "most".
> > >
> > > Ooh, just spotted some interesting items on their "tested applications" list.
> > > - DirectX
> > > - DirectX 6
> > > - DirectX 7
> > > - DirectX 8
> > > - DirectX 9
> > >
> > > How about we just completely ignore these idiots?
> >
> > Also:
> > # Internet Explorer 5.0 and 5.5
> > # Internet Explorer 6.0
>
> I've heard of some success with 6.0 (without crappy
> winedoors/ies4linux stuff), so I didn't comment.
> > # iPod Support in iTunes 4.0
>
> Hmm, that seems unlikely
> > # Mac OS X
> > # Mac OS X Audio Input Support
>
> Well spotted, Austin!
>
> Maybe they're talking about a VM, not Wine ... in which case, you'd
> have to get a copy of Windows, which defeats the purpose of being
> proud about their Windows app support.
> From http://www.imagicos.com/why.html :

"Compatibility
iMagic OS can run many Microsoft Windows applications along with Linux
applications, with help from the built in Crossover software."

Either they've got a deal with Crossover, or bundled it somehow?

I sent them an e-mail asking for the source, we'll see how that goes.

[Austin English]

On Feb 6, 2009 at 7:33 PM, Austin English  wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 7:30 PM, Ben Klein  wrote:
> > 2009/2/7 Austin English :
> > > On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Ben Klein  wrote:
> > > > 2009/2/7 EA Durbin :
> > > > > I just saw this linux distribution on distrowatch. They claim to be able to
> > > > > run all microsoft products. Interesting.
> > > > > http://www.imagicos.com/
> > > > > http://www.imagicos.com/microsoft.html
> > > >
> > > > No they don't. It says "almost every" on the home page and "most" on
> > > > the "Microsoft" page.
> > > >
> > > > Assuming they're talking about Wine, someone should tell them that
> > > > they're wrong anyway. "quite a lot of entirely win32 applications",
> > > > maybe. Almost certainly not "most".
> > > >
> > > > Ooh, just spotted some interesting items on their "tested applications" list.
> > > > - DirectX
> > > > - DirectX 6
> > > > - DirectX 7
> > > > - DirectX 8
> > > > - DirectX 9
> > > >
> > > > How about we just completely ignore these idiots?
> > >
> > > Also:
> > > # Internet Explorer 5.0 and 5.5
> > > # Internet Explorer 6.0
> >
> > I've heard of some success with 6.0 (without crappy
> > winedoors/ies4linux stuff), so I didn't comment.
> > > # iPod Support in iTunes 4.0
> >
> > Hmm, that seems unlikely
> > > # Mac OS X
> > > # Mac OS X Audio Input Support
> >
> > Well spotted, Austin!
> >
> > Maybe they're talking about a VM, not Wine ... in which case, you'd
> > have to get a copy of Windows, which defeats the purpose of being
> > proud about their Windows app support.
>
> From http://www.imagicos.com/why.html :
> "Compatibility
> iMagic OS can run many Microsoft Windows applications along with Linux
> applications, with help from the built in Crossover software."
>
> Either they've got a deal with Crossover, or bundled it somehow?
>
> I sent them an e-mail asking for the source, we'll see how that goes.
>
> --
> -Austin

Got a reply (pretty quick, must say):
[e-mail] to me 7:02 AM (6 hours ago)	
    
Glad to help. We recognize that people have put a lot of work into GNU
software, and we honor that with GPL by having the Debian Binary Packages
freely available for ease of installation. Attached to this email is a text
file that details out this process. We cannot give out all source code,
because iMagic OS includes proprietary software such as Crossover Pro &
Games, Picasa, Skype, and others, as well as our own applications,
including magicOnline and magicOffice, enhancements, configurations, and
other desktop features. But we honor anything GNU, so feel free to download
the DEBs from Ubuntu repos as we did per instructions in the attached text
file.

Best Wishes!

Your Friends at iMagic OS

On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 19:28:34 -0600, Austin English 
wrote:
- Hide quoted text -
> I don't see anywhere where I can download the source to
> GPL/GPL'ed/BSD/etc. code used in your operating system. Can you send
> me the link please.
> Thanks!
>
> -Austin

Along with the attached text file...apparently they think pointing
users to binary packages is enough to satisfy the GPL o.0.

[Nikolay Sivov]

EA Durbin wrote:
> I just saw this linux distribution on distrowatch. They claim to be 
> able to run all microsoft products. Interesting.
> http://www.imagicos.com/
> http://www.imagicos.com/microsoft.html
>
> Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. Check it 
> out. 
> http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_022009

Especially this http://imagicos.net/private_packages/depend.html
BTW. CrossOver and Mac OS X are listed too. As Win Apps...

[Jeremy White]

EA Durbin wrote:
> I just saw this linux distribution on distrowatch. They claim to be able
> to run all microsoft products. Interesting.

Just for the record, these folks are customers of ours.

It is my belief that their distribution of CrossOver complies with all
of the terms of the LGPL; we try to make sure of that for our customers.
 I even believe that money they make as a result of their windows
compatibility will, albeit fairly indirectly, support Wine development.

Obviously, I like it when folks can celebrate the contributions of
everyone to Wine, and to all the FOSS products that go into something
like a Linux distribution.  But Free Software means that folks are also
free to market as they see fit :-/.

Cheers,

Jeremy