That is,
Lets assume for the sake of argument that Alexandre likes my 0.8 idea so much, that he releases Wine 0.8 with much fanfare next Monday (so we have a good audience), and the news reaches Slashdot where a message with a link to http://www.winehq.org is posted, in good CmdrTaco fashion...
And so, let's see what's going to happen:
1. 90% of /.ers will click on the link, and WineHQ gets Slashdotted! :)
2. People will look for the typical left-side menu: Home About Status Development Download Screenshots
*BZZT* We don't have any. 5% will drop off here.
3. Then they'll visually search for the word "Screenshot"
*BZZT* We don't have any on front page. 30% will drop off. *I* drop off here when I visit other projects, for crying out loud!
So let's assume that by a miracle they'll discover the screenshots: do they make them drool? No, we loose another 15%.
Damn, that's tough! Let's see what happens to the rest:
4. Let's download, and try it out
Do we have officially sanctioned binaries (at the very least .rpms for RH, and .deb for Debian)? No. *BZZT* We loose another 30%. Again, *I* don't care about stuff that doesn't come as a binary .rpm for my RH system. I used to, not anymore.
Fine, some will install what they download. What next? Hm, this Wine thing just sits there, it's not that simple. We need to read some docs. Back to the site.
5. Look at the docs
Oh, we have some. We hate to read docs, but Wine is cool, so we swallow the pill. Only to find out it's out of date!!! What a piece of #@$%!
*BZZT* Another 10% drop off.
Thats 90% drop-off before they really tried it out! The rest 10%, go on. So, what do we do with it?
6. Look for a list of Win-apps that we can run
Is there something on the site? No. Blah, too much hassel...
*BZZT* Another 5% go.
(Don't even mention app-db, it's *way* too complicated!)
So the 5% left, install wine, install a Win-app, and play around. Great, it works! They start learning the utilities, etc., but those are in flux, and we change them, and they get PO-ed. Another percent, or two leave the fold...
On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 02:11:31AM -0500, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote:
That is,
Lets assume for the sake of argument that Alexandre likes my 0.8 idea so much, that he releases Wine 0.8 with much fanfare next Monday (so we have a good audience), and the news reaches Slashdot where a message with a link to http://www.winehq.org is posted, in good CmdrTaco fashion...
And so, let's see what's going to happen:
90% of /.ers will click on the link, and WineHQ gets Slashdotted! :)
People will look for the typical left-side menu: Home About Status Development Download Screenshots
*BZZT* We don't have any. 5% will drop off here.
Sorry to say that, but in this mail, *you* were talking *some* crap IMHO ;-)
We *do* have screenshots. The About page has some pretty nice screenshot. OK, it's a minimalist approach, granted, but it does show IE etc.
If you want more screenshots, then you just need to go to the AppDB. (although we don't mention it yet, so I'll add a subtitle "for more screenshots, see AppDB" to the screenshot now)
- Then they'll visually search for the word "Screenshot"
*BZZT* We don't have any on front page. 30% will drop off. *I* drop off here when I visit other projects, for crying out loud!
The "About Wine" item *definitely* tells *everyone* that a screenshot should be found within the "About Wine" section... If we honoured every stupid link request, then the main page would look like some huge pile of... err... crap.
We've been asked directly or indirectly countless times to include certain things on the main page (and we often thought "hmm, this needs quite a bit of attention, so: put it on the main page ??").
But including everything would be a HUGE mistake. Instead WineHQ needs a *clean* and obvious organisation (some improvements might well be possible here, I guess). And the idea of finding screenshot(s) on "About Wine" is definitely as good as it can ever get.
So let's assume that by a miracle they'll discover the screenshots: do they make them drool? No, we loose another 15%.
Hmm, k, it could be a bit more spectacular, correct.
Damn, that's tough! Let's see what happens to the rest:
- Let's download, and try it out
Do we have officially sanctioned binaries (at the very least .rpms for RH, and .deb for Debian)? No. *BZZT* We loose another 30%. Again, *I* don't care about stuff that doesn't come as a binary .rpm for my RH system. I used to, not anymore.
Well... obviously we don't have enough people who are willing to enforce a properly maintained package for various architectures. Instead we've got some chaotic heap of wildly differing packages. One could argue that this situation helps CodeWeavers' bottom line, though ;-)
Fine, some will install what they download. What next? Hm, this Wine thing just sits there, it's not that simple. We need to read some docs. Back to the site.
- Look at the docs
Oh, we have some. We hate to read docs, but Wine is cool, so we swallow the pill. Only to find out it's out of date!!! What a piece of #@$%!
*I* am definitely not the one to blame here :) (BTW, you got a point here)
*BZZT* Another 10% drop off.
Thats 90% drop-off before they really tried it out! The rest 10%, go on. So, what do we do with it?
- Look for a list of Win-apps that we can run
Is there something on the site? No. Blah, too much hassel...
*BZZT* Another 5% go.
Hmm, I guess it all boils down to having the About page get redesigned a bit. We should definitely include a prominent link to the AppDB, and maybe also a separate page with kickass knock-down screenshots... Does anyone want to give us some ideas about how the page should be redesigned ?
(Don't even mention app-db, it's *way* too complicated!)
Huh ?? I really can't follow you on that one... (ok, it's not a dumbed-down page listing some screenshots and nothing else apart from that, but it was never meant to be made for dummies)
Which all boils down to the essential question: which amount of morons does our project need/want ? :-)
So the 5% left, install wine, install a Win-app, and play around. Great, it works! They start learning the utilities, etc., but those are in flux, and we change them, and they get PO-ed. Another percent, or two leave the fold...
OK, those ~ 90% might be somewhat drastic (after all if you really *need* to run Windoze apps, you'll be willing to go through quite some hassle), but it might be rather high indeed.
May I suggest that you'd probably have fixed about 50% of these issues if you hadn't done this ranting about it, but instead used that time to fix them ? ;-))
Take it easy,
Andreas
If you want more screenshots, then you just need to go to the AppDB. (although we don't mention it yet, so I'll add a subtitle "for more screenshots, see AppDB" to the screenshot now)
hmm.. IMHO the screenshots should be shown BEFORE the rest of the site shows up.. screenshots are the most important thing.. when i go to a side to download something that's not a cmdline tool i want screenshots.. and i want A LOT of them... in wine's case that would be screenshots of wine running all M$ products to give people a good laugh and motivate them to go on.. and after that IMPORTANT screenshots of wine running games... and after that some screenshots of wine running crap.. and atfer that the download screen with a 5 or 10 step installation instruction.. and after that the rest...
1) screenshots/flash animation with M$ products 2) screenshots/flash animation with games 3) download and a richly pictured 5 or 10 step installation guide (for dummies.. i mean REAL dummies.. hmm.. or let's say people who just installed Linux/Unix and miss their windows crap) 4) example config files to enable dummies to run the top 10 most-best-favourite-games in 2 or 3 steps (i think this is the MOST important point.. firms who want to run M$ products will have their consulting ppl who do things like installing wine for them.. but ppl who have to do things themselves are almost ppl who want to run games..)
....
5) all BLABLABLA and sciences nobody is interested in when he JUST wants to run M$ stuff on his linux/unix..
maybe you should select someone who takes care only of such stuff.. like "Big mouthing", PR , ranting, tutorial writing, picture drawing, flash animations... etc..
that's meant to be a constructive critic.. for more inspirations have a look here.. http://www.microsoft.com
Dirk
On October 31, 2002 10:29 am, Andreas Mohr wrote:
Sorry to say that, but in this mail, *you* were talking *some* crap IMHO ;-)
It's OK, you just missed the point. :P Honestly, you did: it's not ranting, it's a way to highlight where, and what we need to do. I said that in the P.S. by the way. Reread it.
We *do* have screenshots. The About page has some pretty nice screenshot. OK, it's a minimalist approach, granted, but it does show IE etc.
All projects that have something to show, have a link to the screenshots on the front page. Period. *Except* us. What's the point in arguing that the entire world is stupid, but us?!? People expect that, the same way they expect a "File, Edit, View, ... Help" menu. Many just stop there, if they don't find it. I know *I* do that, for chrissake!
Just remember: if we are pissing against the wind, we'll get wet. :)
"Dimitrie O. Paun" dpaun@rogers.com writes:
So the 5% left, install wine, install a Win-app, and play around. Great, it works!
You forgot a few things here:
First it doesn't even start because they don't have a config file. OK, they copy one from somewhere, it doesn't work because the drives are wrong. Then they don't have the proper registry (winedefault.reg? what's that?) Then they finally manage to run the installer but it puts stuff in RunOnce that never gets run so the app doesn't work. Then they finally make the app run but can't print anything. And when they ask for help they get told to fight the FAQ-O-Matic crap to maybe finally find an answer telling them they are an idiot.
So no, I'm not going to make a general public release just yet...
On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 08:24:28AM -0800, Alexandre Julliard wrote:
"Dimitrie O. Paun" dpaun@rogers.com writes:
So the 5% left, install wine, install a Win-app, and play around. Great, it works!
You forgot a few things here:
As for the SuSE wine RPMS:
First it doesn't even start because they don't have a config file. OK, they copy one from somewhere, it doesn't work because the drives are wrong.
Been there, done that. Not very good, it is still using winesetuptk which might be too much in way of configuration.
Then they don't have the proper registry (winedefault.reg? what's that?)
Merged automatically with startup script.
Then they finally manage to run the installer but it puts stuff in RunOnce that never gets run so the app doesn't work.
Ok, this one is still missing.
Then they finally make the app run but can't print anything.
Two edged sword.
CUPS works fine here, however if all applications are ready to print with WINEPS and winspool.drv is another issue.
And when they ask for help they get told to fight the FAQ-O-Matic crap to maybe finally find an answer telling them they are an idiot.
Yep. But this one is harder, what do you think needs to be there?
So no, I'm not going to make a general public release just yet...
Not yet too late for another 'Halloween' release though ;)
Ciao, Marcus
On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 03:07:15PM -0500, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote:
On October 31, 2002 03:00 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote:
Not yet too late for another 'Halloween' release though ;)
Yep...
...next year ! ;)
I don't want to jinx it, but at the rate we're going, we'd be lucky to do a 1.0 'Halloween' release next year :/
Why, the current rate is avalanche-like ;)
I'm growing ever more astonished about the increase in wine-patches per day...
But of course you're sorta right, we're still quite far off the mark.
On October 31, 2002 03:11 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote:
Why, the current rate is avalanche-like ;)
I'm growing ever more astonished about the increase in wine-patches per day...
Same here. It's quite amazing! But can we sustain the rate for a year?
But of course you're sorta right, we're still quite far off the mark.
Yes, but it's been my experience that there's nothing like a good, focused TODO list to get people working on what's needed. And this is were I'm aiming with these emails...
On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 03:20:34PM -0500, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote:
On October 31, 2002 03:11 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote:
Why, the current rate is avalanche-like ;)
I'm growing ever more astonished about the increase in wine-patches per day...
Same here. It's quite amazing! But can we sustain the rate for a year?
I might be willing to bet that it might actually increase even more, now that more and more companies go The Linux Way...
But of course you're sorta right, we're still quite far off the mark.
Yes, but it's been my experience that there's nothing like a good, focused TODO list to get people working on what's needed. And this is were I'm aiming with these emails...
Very true. We should make sure that the Contribute page links more or less directly to one page listing the requirements for a specific version (that'd be the Bugzilla 0.9 and 1.0 pages, I guess). But AFAIK the Contribute page already does this.
BTW, I just updated the Contribute page quite a lot.
Andreas Mohr wrote:
On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 03:07:15PM -0500, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote:
On October 31, 2002 03:00 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote:
Not yet too late for another 'Halloween' release though ;)
Yep...
...next year ! ;)
I don't want to jinx it, but at the rate we're going, we'd be lucky to do a 1.0 'Halloween' release next year :/
Why, the current rate is avalanche-like ;)
I'm growing ever more astonished about the increase in wine-patches per day...
But of course you're sorta right, we're still quite far off the mark.
(Jumping in a little late) I seem to remember someone once posted a graph of the growth in wine source (I think it was a line count). Seems to me it is about time for another one.
On October 31, 2002 11:24 am, Alexandre Julliard wrote:
You forgot a few things here:
Yes, and no: it was getting late, hand was all funny, email was getting too long... :)
First it doesn't even start because they don't have a config file. OK,
Hear, hear! BTW, we should move configuration out of documentation/samples
[...] it doesn't work because the drives are wrong.
Yep. wineinstall?
Then they don't have the proper registry (winedefault.reg? what's that?)
:)))
Then they finally manage to run the installer but it puts stuff in RunOnce that never gets run so the app doesn't work.
See, I wasn't even aware of that!
Then they finally make the app run but can't print anything. And
True.
when they ask for help they get told to fight the FAQ-O-Matic crap to maybe finally find an answer telling them they are an idiot.
That FAQ-O-Matic should just be 'rm -rf'. It's crap. We either have a carefully hand-written FAQ, or nothing at all.
So no, I'm not going to make a general public release just yet...
I am not even suggesting it. I just went through the exercise so we can extract a TODO...
On Thu, 2002-10-31 at 12:19, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote:
On October 31, 2002 11:24 am, Alexandre Julliard wrote:
You forgot a few things here:
[...] it doesn't work because the drives are wrong.
Yep. wineinstall?
Then they don't have the proper registry (winedefault.reg? what's that?)
:)))
I hate to jump in again, but isn't wine a little backwards from other releases when dealing with a fresh tar.gz install?
I realize wineinstall will do the work for you, but aren't people just used to ./configure - make - make install?
I think they do that, then they're stuck. configure always tells you to do a 'make depend && make', why not throw in a little blrub "Hey, if you're running this for the first time, run wineinstall instead." ?
Or is wineinstall not doing what I think it is (setting up initial environment)?
Ok, I'll be quiet for a few months again :)
Rick
"Dimitrie O. Paun" dpaun@rogers.com writes:
On October 31, 2002 11:24 am, Alexandre Julliard wrote:
First it doesn't even start because they don't have a config file. OK,
Hear, hear! BTW, we should move configuration out of documentation/samples
I don't think that would really help rpm users... IMO the whole concept is flawed (try editing the config while the wineserver is still running ;) configuration should be stored in the registry and there should be control panel applets to configure the various parts of Wine, which would allow changing things on the fly.
Once we have that we need to make sure we have suitable defaults to allow running at least the drives/paths control panel without registry files at all. We also need the Wine dlls to register themselves instead of having to merge winedefault.reg by hand. Then it should be possible to write a .inf script to setup a new Wine install automatically from scratch.
On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 01:19:33PM -0500, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote:
On October 31, 2002 11:24 am, Alexandre Julliard wrote:
You forgot a few things here:
Yes, and no: it was getting late, hand was all funny, email was getting too long... :)
First it doesn't even start because they don't have a config file. OK,
Hear, hear! BTW, we should move configuration out of documentation/samples
Hmm, why ? Where should it be then ? Having sample config in such a directory has a pretty long tradition. One thing that comes to my mind here is Debian.
Then they finally manage to run the installer but it puts stuff in RunOnce that never gets run so the app doesn't work.
See, I wasn't even aware of that!
Hmm, my problem :-\
Then they finally make the app run but can't print anything. And
True.
I second that (at least sometimes).
when they ask for help they get told to fight the FAQ-O-Matic crap to maybe finally find an answer telling them they are an idiot.
That FAQ-O-Matic should just be 'rm -rf'. It's crap. We either have a carefully hand-written FAQ, or nothing at all.
Gee, thanks ! You know how many man-weeks (err, months ?) I've been putting into it, right ?
I guess I hereby declare that I'll stop ALL documentation work. Obviously it's not too appreciated, given the constant and very annoying whining. Not to mention that I've been constantly working "behind the fact".
For christ's sake, IF YOU CAN'T STAND THE DOCU, THEN *IMPROVE IT*.
I did. (past tense) But maybe then it seems like I didn't...
Boy, that'll give me quite some free time for RL work...
On October 31, 2002 02:44 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote:
Gee, thanks ! You know how many man-weeks (err, months ?) I've been putting into it, right ?
I was referring to the interface, not the content. In fact, I think the web-interface makes a disservice to the content. In fact, I am saying quite the opposite: we should bring that content to more to the front, right now it's hidden way too deep inside the site.
On October 31, 2002 02:44 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote:
For christ's sake, IF YOU CAN'T STAND THE DOCU, THEN *IMPROVE IT*.
Well, that's a good point. And I did a bit, but not nearly as much as you.
I did. (past tense) But maybe then it seems like I didn't...
Hey, I've never complained about the work you did on the docs! All I am saying is that the docs are, in part, out of date, and I'm not pointing a finger at you, as it isn't your responsibility to keep them up-to-date. *I* didn't keep the ones I wrote up-to-date, so I don't dare point my finger at anyone :)
The docs are huge, and requite work, which should be tackled by more than one person. No matter how much you work on them, if you are alone, you'll always be behind. So don't take my comments as an attack against you, the one actually working on the docs; quite the opposite, it's a comment to the community for not helping on the said maintenance.
On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 02:58:12PM -0500, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote:
On October 31, 2002 02:44 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote:
For christ's sake, IF YOU CAN'T STAND THE DOCU, THEN *IMPROVE IT*.
Well, that's a good point. And I did a bit, but not nearly as much as you.
I did. (past tense) But maybe then it seems like I didn't...
Hey, I've never complained about the work you did on the docs!
Not directly, yes.
All I am saying is that the docs are, in part, out of date, and I'm not pointing a finger at you, as it isn't your responsibility to keep them up-to-date. *I* didn't keep the ones I wrote up-to-date, so I don't dare point my finger at anyone :)
Heh.
The docs are huge, and requite work, which should be tackled by more than one person. No matter how much you work on them, if you are alone, you'll always be behind. So don't take my comments as an attack against you, the one actually working on the docs; quite the opposite, it's a comment to the community for not helping on the said maintenance.
Well, that maintenance would e.g. include the localization work I suggested, having a *separate* CVS containing all localized Wine Guides, and having automatically updated docu maintenance web pages for every language involved. So far there still is nobody who has stepped up to the plate of implementing such a database-driven web page framework... (I could complain here again, but this time I better won't :)
On October 31, 2002 03:09 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote:
Well, that maintenance would e.g. include the localization work I suggested, having a *separate* CVS containing all localized Wine Guides, and having automatically updated docu maintenance web pages for every language involved.
But this is probably a bit too much. I mean, yeah, would be great to have the guides localized, and what not, but that's a _lot_ of work, and we don't seem to be able to maintain the English ones, let alone other languages. Localizing the guides right now would just compound the problem by just ending up with more unmaintained documentation.
What would be more productive, at this point, is a clear, and focused TODO list for the current documentation, broken down into two sections: 1. What is out of date (and needs fixing) 2. What is missing (and needs writing) Now, you being the guy that know the docs best, ..., eh, ..., maybe you can help create such a list ;) Once it's done, maybe people will start picking an item at a time, etc. What do ya say?
On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 03:17:26PM -0500, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote:
On October 31, 2002 03:09 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote:
Well, that maintenance would e.g. include the localization work I suggested, having a *separate* CVS containing all localized Wine Guides, and having automatically updated docu maintenance web pages for every language involved.
But this is probably a bit too much. I mean, yeah, would be great to have the guides localized, and what not, but that's a _lot_ of work, and we don't seem to be able to maintain the English ones, let alone other languages. Localizing the guides right now would just compound the problem by just ending up with more unmaintained documentation.
And here AGAIN I have to disagree with you :)
Given a *correct* and *working* framework, the docu simply would not be rendered unmaintained. Every change in the English docu would keep sitting (or rotting) on the various foreign language translation pages until this change has been applied to the respective language and the item has been closed. (OK, if you're overly pessimistic, then you'll probably tell me now that nobody will ever work on updating foreign languages, despite of such a marvellous infrastructure)
What would be more productive, at this point, is a clear, and focused TODO list for the current documentation, broken down into two sections:
- What is out of date (and needs fixing)
- What is missing (and needs writing)
Now, you being the guy that know the docs best, ..., eh, ..., maybe you can help create such a list ;) Once it's done, maybe people will start picking an item at a time, etc. What do ya say?
Hmm, WAIT... didn't I say somewhere that I wouldn't work on docu any more ? I guess I didn't :)
I could do that, but don't count on it, since my time is limited. (heck, I can't even keep up with the Wine mails that keep flooding my inbox !) (not to mention that it's me today who's to blame quite a lot for this mail situation today :)
On October 31, 2002 03:33 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote:
(OK, if you're overly pessimistic, then you'll probably tell me now that nobody will ever work on updating foreign languages, despite of such a marvellous infrastructure)
No, all I am saying is that's a lot of effort, for not that huge gain. IMO there is a lot to gain on the docs front by just working on the English docs, that's all. And it's not nearly as complicated, requires no infrastructure, etc. Once we tackle that, we can start thinking about localizing the docs (even though I would suggest waiting for things to stabilize, since it's a lot of work, and there's no point in tracking a rapidly changing Wine in a gazillion languages).
Hmm, WAIT... didn't I say somewhere that I wouldn't work on docu any more ? I guess I didn't :)
Oh, come on man! Pretty please? :)))
El jue, 31 de oct de 2002, a las 02:11, Dimitrie O. Paun escribio:
That is,
Lets assume for the sake of argument that Alexandre likes my 0.8 idea so much, that he releases Wine 0.8 with much fanfare next Monday (so we have a good audience),
10th Anniversary (??-??-2003)? sounds to a good date.
Regards, Carlos.
On October 31, 2002 11:40 am, Carlos Lozano wrote:
10th Anniversary (??-??-2003)? sounds to a good date.
Cool! :) Alexandre, when is that?
"Dimitrie O. Paun" dpaun@rogers.com writes:
On October 31, 2002 11:40 am, Carlos Lozano wrote:
10th Anniversary (??-??-2003)? sounds to a good date.
Cool! :) Alexandre, when is that?
Sometime in June, I don't have the exact date of the first release unfortunately. Release 0.0.2 was on June 25.
On October 31, 2002 01:21 pm, Alexandre Julliard wrote:
Sometime in June, I don't have the exact date of the first release unfortunately. Release 0.0.2 was on June 25.
Too far away for 0.8, too close for 1.0. Maybe 0.9, if we're lucky.
Em Qui, 2002-10-31 às 16:38, Dimitrie O. Paun escreveu:
On October 31, 2002 01:21 pm, Alexandre Julliard wrote:
Sometime in June, I don't have the exact date of the first release unfortunately. Release 0.0.2 was on June 25.
Too far away for 0.8, too close for 1.0. Maybe 0.9, if we're lucky.
Maybe it's better to call the next version 0.9. I checked up, 0.8 is already released :) It was the last version to be released before switching to the snapshot style version numbering. (the first snapshot was released February 1994)
-- Dimi.
-- Johan Dahlin jdahlin@async.com.br
Alexandre Julliard wrote:
"Dimitrie O. Paun" writes:
So the 5% left, install wine, install a Win-app, and play around. Great, it works!
You forgot a few things here:
First it doesn't even start because they don't have a config file. OK, they copy one from somewhere, it doesn't work because the drives are wrong.
The config file that you guy's at Codeweavers use works verrrry well. I have not seen anyone cry about drives being wrong on the codeweavers Discuss list !! And if there is someone with a strange set-up they could read a DOC on how to correct the problem. Most people ask about how to set version to win98 .... since --version was removed.
Then they don't have the proper registry (winedefault.reg? what's that?)
You could look at this registry : http://www.franksworld.net/wine/files/wineregistry.tgz I am in no way saying this is 100% correct but it is at least a good start :)
Tom
Then they finally manage to run the installer but it puts stuff in RunOnce that never gets run so the app doesn't work. Then they finally make the app run but can't print anything. And when they ask for help they get told to fight the FAQ-O-Matic crap to maybe finally find an answer telling them they are an idiot.
So no, I'm not going to make a general public release just yet...
-
Alexandre Julliard -
Andreas Mohr -
Carlos Lozano -
Dimitrie O. Paun -
Dirk -
Duane Clark -
Johan Dahlin -
Marcus Meissner -
Rick Romero -
Thomas Wickline