On 11/5/07, Alexander Nicolaysen Sørnes alex@thehandofagony.com wrote: On Monday 05 November 2007 11:49:52 Hans Leidekker wrote:
On Monday 05 November 2007 10:39:32 Kai Blin wrote:
Personally, I would like to see more people stepping up to help run #winehq instead of just complaining about the work of one of the very few people who actually are out there helping users.
As I understand this history feba thatl tried to do exactly that: help others on our user channel... and got banned by vitamin. So if vitamin is really under stress from all these complaining users, he's not helping himself by kicking out others who try to help.
-Hans
No, he was just telling the user to upgrade Wine, which vitamin knew would have no effect whatsoever. The only thing that could have benefited from that advice would have been his self-image.
Alexander N. Sørnes
What? How does giving someone a basic bit of advice, usually the first advice you hear (It's even in the channel's topic), do anything to improve anyone's self-image? If I was going to try to feel better about myself, it wouldn't be by sitting on IRC acting like I know all the answers to something I don't. I no more help people for my self-image than Vitamin kicks people for entertainment-- that's not the case, and we shouldn't act like it is.
Even still, why should someone who helps others because it makes them feel good be shunned? They can still help. Not to mention, where do you draw the line? People who can only give basic advice and their best guess? People who know more than that, but are off the mark?
People shouldn't be expected to think in code and memorize every tidbit under the sun if they just want to try to help people, there's no reason someone should be kicked for making a good faith effort, especially without being told otherwise. I could understand if I had been sitting in the channel, and popped in with a comment that was obviously out of place based on what had already been mentioned, or if I had been asked to stop, or if my advice was obviously and intentionally harmful (telling people to rm -rf / and such), but it wasn't.
If people really are expected to know everything there is to know before they try to help, is it really such a wonder that there's only a few solid contributors left, and they're stressed from it?
This really has little to do with myself, Vitamin, the other person, or what happened; it's about winehq's problems where it should be concerned with helping people. There are definite civility problems; of course on the side of those that seek help (As many feel like customers instead of part of a community), but also on the side of those that give it. Now, I can obviously understand mistreating people who are just screwing around, or treating people who are trying to help them like crap, but it's treating people that are trying to give or get help the same way that bugs me. I can understand it how it happens, like I said above, I'm not saying I'd be better in such a situation.
I have nothing to gain from this being corrected that anyone else seeking help wouldn't, and I'm not asking for any action to be taken against Vitamin for anything, at least yet. I've got nothing against him-- I might have a sour taste in my mouth when I cross him, but I don't think he's a bad person. He knows and cares a lot about something, tries to improve and help people with it, and dislikes people who he perceives as stupid or harmful; even to the point where he becomes a bit too annoyed and starts mislabeling people, or treating people who don't deserve it wrongly. I don't blame him for this, as I've done the same myself. Multiple times. Under different circumstances, I could easily see us being friends.
What I want to see changed here isn't treatment of any specific person-- in fact I would probably disagree with any action major enough to matter being taken against Vitamin, as again, from what I've seen he seems to be a valuable asset to Wine and #winehq-- just for some sort of adoption of rules for how to treat other people being established, even if they're as simple as:
1. Users: Be nice to the helpers. We are volunteers, not employees, and have no obligation to help you. 2. Helpers and Admins: Remember Hanlon's razor.
P.S. I accidentally only sent this to one email address, and had some trouble digging up the sent message to try to get it out again. Sorry about any trouble this might have.
If people really are expected to know everything there is to know before they try to help, is it really such a wonder that there's only a few solid contributors left, and they're stressed from it?
Absolutly not. That's why imho, the #winehq should be taken off the homepage. The newly created wine-forum.org has multiple advantages over an IRC chan: - frequently asked questions can be easily found avoiding duplicates (this depends on good moderation of forum hierarchy though, probably an approval queue) - people having questions actually have to THINK before asking, instead of just opening up IRC and start bubbling - of course moderators have more time to THINK before actually replying, too - rules for civil communication and about form of inquiries can more easily be enforced (Just thinking about it, the Drupal issue system has some nice features too, f.e. attribute fields for each post like status, version, type of request and so on) Of course this would need active forum herdsmen.. but it is probably less dissatisfying than directly confronting the totally clueless in realtime.. and I for one would definitly volunteer (although I have just started coding WINE) as a moderator.. the more the better though.. Mr Wickline, what's your take on that?
a basic bit of advice, usually the first advice you hear (It's even in the channel's topic)
Good point. And it seems reasonable too, as statistically more fixes than regressions get commited for each new version (else WINE would totally be so WINE for workgroups 3.1).. I don't think you have done any wrong with that. And interpreting vitamin's reply "that's not a problem here" correctly as "this has not been fixed yet so updating wine will not solve the problem" is really a tall order.
If I was going to try to feel better about myself, it wouldn't be by sitting on IRC
SCNR: although depending on many factors, that is soo true from experience; almost anything else would work better.. *g
against Vitamin for anything, at least yet. I've got nothing against him-- I might have a sour taste in my mouth when I cross him, but I don't think he's a bad person. He knows and cares a lot about something, tries to improve and help people with it, and dislikes people who he perceives as stupid or harmful; even to the point where he becomes a bit too annoyed and starts mislabeling people, or
Yeah, I've had this myself. He decided to ignore my argumentation and put me on his 'troll ignore list'. It pissed me off but well, life goes on. Whatever.
- Users: Be nice to the helpers. We are volunteers, not employees, and have no obligation to help you.
Yeah, stealing is forbidden, too. People just don't stop.
- Helpers and Admins: Remember Hanlon's razor.
had to look this one up, quote:
Hanlon's razor From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Hanlon's razor is an adage which reads: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." Also worded as: "Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice."
Lol I like that. Vitamin give me your postal address and I'll send you a nice poster print of this ;)
anyways, back to work regards marcel
On 11/5/07, Marcel Partap mpartap@gmx.net wrote:
If people really are expected to know everything there is to know before they try to help, is it really such a wonder that there's only a few solid contributors left, and they're stressed from it?
Absolutly not. That's why imho, the #winehq should be taken off the homepage. The newly created wine-forum.org has multiple advantages over an IRC chan:
- frequently asked questions can be easily found avoiding duplicates (this depends on good moderation of forum hierarchy
though, probably an approval queue)
- people having questions actually have to THINK before asking, instead of just opening up IRC and start bubbling
- of course moderators have more time to THINK before actually replying, too
- rules for civil communication and about form of inquiries can more easily be enforced
(Just thinking about it, the Drupal issue system has some nice features too, f.e. attribute fields for each post like status, version, type of request and so on) Of course this would need active forum herdsmen.. but it is probably less dissatisfying than directly confronting the totally clueless in realtime.. and I for one would definitly volunteer (although I have just started coding WINE) as a moderator.. the more the better though.. Mr Wickline, what's your take on that?
Hello Marcel,
Everyone is welcome to register and use the forum, any Wine developer or advanced user who wants Moderator status on the forum only needs to send me a mail and ill set it up. I can set Moderator status on a per forum basis. So be sure to let me know what forums your interested in helping out in.
Cheers,
Tom
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feba thatl -
Marcel Partap -
Tom Wickline