0.9.17 and other issues

[Roland Kaeser]

Hello All

By all respect of all the hard work the developers make all day. But to see the changes in 0.9.17 makes me really angry. Is everybody developing for the gamers?  Whats the focus of the wine development? Currently I have many bugzilla bugs open to be fixed to get business applications running. And I can see while testing my 10 application with every release that nothing had changed on the business apps.  All of them are the same unstable, or installable or some bugs else (see printing issues etc). I know thats cool developing gaming features but THAT CANNOT BE THE GOAL!!!!!  In the offices I support  as admin/sys engineer, we are all waiting for wine becomes stable enough to get the business apps running to switch to linux completely. But all I can see is that all the bugs are already there from release to release! But on every release I read some things about DirectX, Gaming Support etc. Whould it not be better just to fix the existing bugs before developping new ones? All
 the people I know WANT TO RUN THEIR BUSINESS APPS ON LINUX. Nobody wants run games. So my question again: WHATS THE FOCUS OF THE WINE DEVELOPMENT????

Roland Kaeser

[Ivan Gyurdiev]

> By all respect of all the hard work the developers make all day. But 
> to see the changes in 0.9.17 makes me really angry. Is everybody 
> developing for the gamers?

Actually I would say that the majority of developers are working on 
features not directly related to games.
> Whats the focus of the wine development? I know thats cool 
> developing gaming features but THAT CANNOT BE THE GOAL!!!!!

An open source project doesn't have "the goal" - it has many goals that 
suit the various parties contributing to development.
There's no reason why work can't be done to make business applications 
and games work at the same time.
If you have a strong interest/need to make business apps run, I'd 
suggest you hire developer(s) to work on the project.
> In the offices I support  as admin/sys engineer, we are all waiting 
> for wine becomes stable enough to get the business apps running to 
> switch to linux completely. But all I can see is that all the bugs are 
> already there from release to release!

I'm sure additional contributors are welcome :)
> Nobody wants run games.

You're wrong - that's my primary reason for using wine (and my focus of 
development).
Therefore at least one person wants to run games.

[H. Verbeet]

On 11/07/06, Roland Kaeser  wrote:
> But to see the changes in 0.9.17 makes me really angry. Is everybody
> developing for the gamers?

Did you actually read the Changelog?

http://source.winehq.org/source/ChangeLog

[n0dalus]

On 7/11/06, Roland Kaeser  wrote:
> By all respect of all the hard work the developers make all day. But to see
> the changes in 0.9.17 makes me really angry. Is everybody developing for the
> gamers?  Whats the focus of the wine development? Currently I have many
> bugzilla bugs open to be fixed to get business applications running. And I
> can see while testing my 10 application with every release that nothing had
> changed on the business apps.  All of them are the same unstable, or
> installable or some bugs else (see printing issues etc). I know thats cool
> developing gaming features but THAT CANNOT BE THE GOAL!!!!!  In the offices
> I support  as admin/sys engineer, we are all waiting for wine becomes stable
> enough to get the business apps running to switch to linux completely. But
> all I can see is that all the bugs are already there from release to
> release! But on every release I read some things about DirectX, Gaming
> Support etc. Whould it not be better just to fix the existing bugs before
> developping new ones? All the people I know WANT TO RUN THEIR BUSINESS APPS
> ON LINUX. Nobody wants run games. So my question again: WHATS THE FOCUS OF
> THE WINE DEVELOPMENT????

Don't be angry because volunteer developers are doing what interests
them. You'll find that the paid wine (codeweavers) developers do a lot
of work to get business applications working under wine, while the
volunteer developers do whatever interests them at the time (often
games). These people have great skills to contribute to wine, even if
it's in an area you think should not be a goal.

If you want to get more business applications working in wine, you are
welcome to contribute to that yourself. Submit patches, or donate
money or software to developers. Write letters to businesses
registering your interest in having their applications run in wine or
Linux. Help do quality assurance; find and report bugs for these
applications, and write tests for wine to run. There are many things
you can do to help. The other developers are already helping with what
they do best.

n0dalus.

[Marcus Meissner]

On Tue, Jul 11, 2006 at 10:02:31AM +0000, Roland Kaeser wrote:
> Hello All
>
> By all respect of all the hard work the developers make all day. But to see the changes in 0.9.17 makes me really angry. Is everybody developing for the gamers?  Whats the focus of the wine development? Currently I have many bugzilla bugs open to be fixed to get business applications running. And I can see while testing my 10 application with every release that nothing had changed on the business apps.  All of them are the same unstable, or installable or some bugs else (see printing issues etc). I know thats cool developing gaming features but THAT CANNOT BE THE GOAL!!!!!  In the offices I support  as admin/sys engineer, we are all waiting for wine becomes stable enough to get the business apps running to switch to linux completely. But all I can see is that all the bugs are already there from release to release! But on every release I read some things about DirectX, Gaming Support etc. Whould it not be better just to fix the existing bugs before developping new ones? All
>  the people I know WANT TO RUN THEIR BUSINESS APPS ON LINUX. Nobody wants run games. So my question again: WHATS THE FOCUS OF THE WINE DEVELOPMENT????

Lean back and relax. :)

Everyone is doing what he wants to do and in the Opensource world,
people cannot be forced.

There is a set of people working on making gaming better, yes.
There is another set of people working on making business apps better.

There is a lot of non-bugzilla driven development going on but
also some bugzilla driven...

So the recommendation is just to let it go along.

Ciao, Marcus

[Tim Schmidt]

Hi Roland...

It's not nice to yell.

--tim

[Christoph Frick]

On Tue, Jul 11, 2006 at 10:02:31AM +0000, Roland Kaeser wrote:
> I know thats cool developing gaming features but THAT CANNOT BE THE
> GOAL!!!!!

the goal is to implement the win32 APIs on top of unix. this does
neither exclude the gamers nor the "appers".
> In the offices I support  as admin/sys engineer, we are all waiting
> for wine becomes stable enough to get the business apps running to
> switch to linux completely.

so why not support that efford by donating some of your time or money
(e.g. your employers) to fix the problems? recently there where the
auditions for the summer of code - why not advocate then to make things
better? why not try crossover's wine?

you have many options - but instead you have chosen to whine to a list
of developers that spend their free time to improve the things they have
problems with; what do you think this will help?
> But on every release I read some things about DirectX, Gaming Support
> etc.  Whould it not be better just to fix the existing bugs before
> developping new ones? All the people I know WANT TO RUN THEIR BUSINESS
> APPS ON LINUX. Nobody wants run games.

you state yourself, that lots of features (that are announce-worthy) are
for games and you think no one cares for games? do you think they are
done for the pure fun of it? have you actually checked the ChangeLog of
the current release? do you think all this changes in ole, msxml, &c.
dlls are done for the pure fun of it? if so - why not join the fun?

[Mike McCormack]

Roland Kaeser wrote:
> In the offices I support  as admin/sys engineer, we are 
> all waiting for wine becomes stable enough to get the business apps 
> running to switch to linux completely. But all I can see is that all the 
> bugs are already there from release to release!

So you have three choices:

1)  Fix bugs yourself, and guide Wine development as you see fit.

2)  Pay somebody else to fix bugs.

3)  Keep waiting...

Mike

[Detlef Riekenberg]

Roland Kaeser wrote:
> But to see the changes in 0.9.17 makes me really angry.

Please do not get upset.
> Is everybody developing for the gamers?

No. Unpaid Developer are developing what is on there Interests.
> Currently I have many bugzilla bugs open to be fixed to get business
> applications running. And I can see while testing my 10 application
> with every release that nothing had changed on the business apps.

As an Example for Printing, Wine uses cups to detect Printers and lpr to
send the Data to the printer, but the Printing-Framework is in most
Places at the Level of "Win3.1".
> All of them are the same unstable, or installable or some bugs else
> (see printing issues etc).

I'm working on Printing in my Free Time, but to fix the Issues in the
correct way, many "low level" - Things are needed first.
(Printing ToDo-List:  http://wiki.winehq.org/Printing )

As an Example for the new-Style Printing-Dialog (bug #4342), we can
create a fast hack and Reuse the old-Style Printing-Dialog.
Fix the Bug in the correct way need Patches for "comdlg32" and
"shell32.dll" and an almost full Implementation of "compstui.dll"
(I already added an empty stub) and "printui.dll" (still missing).

Since the Documentation is really rare for this Area, a lot of Tests
are Required to understand and verify, what windows is doing here.

Everybody is welcome to help!
> we are all waiting for wine becomes stable enough to get the business
> apps running to switch to linux completely. 
> But all I can see is that all the bugs are already there from release
> to release!

You can hire a Developer to fix the Issues.
> But on every release I read some things about DirectX, Gaming Support
> etc.

Many People are Interested only in Games.
> Whould it not be better just to fix the existing bugs before
> developping new ones?

That's what the DirectX-People do: Fixing the bugs in wine, that
are related to Display-Errors.
> Nobody wants run games.

There is a Company in Canada, which has only a single Product (based on
an old wine-Version), that allow the paying Customers to play
Windows-Games on Linux.
> So my question again: WHATS THE FOCUS OF THE WINE DEVELOPMENT????

Run Windows-Applications on Unix.
>