Get FireFox button ?

[Tom Wickline]

Hello,

Would anyone object to a "Get FireFox" button on our front page?
I know I can send a patch and wait and see if there is objection to it.
I just think its better to ask before hand.

If there is NO objection ill send a patch in a couple days, 
or Jer can beat me to it ;)

Tom

[Marcus Meissner]

On Sat, Jul 02, 2005 at 09:48:51AM -0400, Tom Wickline wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Would anyone object to a "Get FireFox" button on our front page?
> I know I can send a patch and wait and see if there is objection to it.
> I just think its better to ask before hand.
>
> If there is NO objection ill send a patch in a couple days, 
> or Jer can beat me to it ;)

Yes, I object.

WINE is not related at all to the Firefox project in my opinion.

Ciao, Marcus

[Felix Nawothnig]

Marcus Meissner wrote:
> > Would anyone object to a "Get FireFox" button on our front page?
> > I know I can send a patch and wait and see if there is objection to it.
> > I just think its better to ask before hand.
> >
> > If there is NO objection ill send a patch in a couple days, 
> > or Jer can beat me to it ;)
>
> Yes, I object.
>
> WINE is not related at all to the Firefox project in my opinion.

How about browsehappy (http://browsehappy.com/browsers/)?

Felix

[Tom Wickline]

On 7/2/05, Felix Nawothnig  wrote:
> Marcus Meissner wrote:
> > > Would anyone object to a "Get FireFox" button on our front page?
> > > I know I can send a patch and wait and see if there is objection to it.
> > > I just think its better to ask before hand.
> > >
> > > If there is NO objection ill send a patch in a couple days,
> > > or Jer can beat me to it ;)
> >
> > Yes, I object.
> >
> > WINE is not related at all to the Firefox project in my opinion.
>
> How about browsehappy (http://browsehappy.com/browsers/)?

That's a WONDERFUL suggestion, I will start a preview on my Wiki page.
and if we receive more acceptable recommendations ill be glad to add
them to the list as well. For a current preview see : 
http://wiki.winehq.org/TomWickline

Tom
> Felix

[Jeremy Newman]

FYI, I will reject any patch to add web browser standard buttons on the
front page without question. It's all well and good you love whatever
browser you use, but we don't need to advertise said love on the WineHQ
page.

On Sat, 2005-07-02 at 11:28 -0400, Tom Wickline wrote:
> On 7/2/05, Felix Nawothnig  wrote:
> > Marcus Meissner wrote:
> > > > Would anyone object to a "Get FireFox" button on our front page?
> > > > I know I can send a patch and wait and see if there is objection to it.
> > > > I just think its better to ask before hand.
> > > >
> > > > If there is NO objection ill send a patch in a couple days,
> > > > or Jer can beat me to it ;)
> > >
> > > Yes, I object.
> > >
> > > WINE is not related at all to the Firefox project in my opinion.
> >
> > How about browsehappy (http://browsehappy.com/browsers/)?
>
> That's a WONDERFUL suggestion, I will start a preview on my Wiki page.
> and if we receive more acceptable recommendations ill be glad to add
> them to the list as well. For a current preview see : 
> http://wiki.winehq.org/TomWickline
>
> Tom
> > Felix

[Tom Wickline]

On 7/5/05, Jeremy Newman  wrote:
> FYI, I will reject any patch to add web browser standard buttons on the
> front page without question. It's all well and good you love whatever
> browser you use, but we don't need to advertise said love on the WineHQ
> page.

I don't have any Love for FireFox!

You see, I had this absolutely stupid idea that this project might
want to help advocate for a FREE, OPEN SOURCE, STANDARDS COMPLIANT Web
browser!
Guess What? I was WRONG!!!

Maybe we should advocate ActiveX controls :D

Tom

[Marcus Meissner]

On Wed, Jul 06, 2005 at 07:26:52AM -0400, Tom Wickline wrote:
> On 7/5/05, Jeremy Newman  wrote:
> > FYI, I will reject any patch to add web browser standard buttons on the
> > front page without question. It's all well and good you love whatever
> > browser you use, but we don't need to advertise said love on the WineHQ
> > page.
>
> I don't have any Love for FireFox!
>
> You see, I had this absolutely stupid idea that this project might
> want to help advocate for a FREE, OPEN SOURCE, STANDARDS COMPLIANT Web
> browser!
> Guess What? I was WRONG!!!
>
> Maybe we should advocate ActiveX controls :D

We advocate one thing:

WINE

Any other thing is just sidetracking users.

Ciao, Marcus

[Holly Bostick]

Tom Wickline schreef:
> On 7/5/05, Jeremy Newman  wrote:
> > FYI, I will reject any patch to add web browser standard buttons on the
> > front page without question. It's all well and good you love whatever
> > browser you use, but we don't need to advertise said love on the WineHQ
> > page.
>
> I don't have any Love for FireFox!
>
> You see, I had this absolutely stupid idea that this project might
> want to help advocate for a FREE, OPEN SOURCE, STANDARDS COMPLIANT Web
> browser!
> Guess What? I was WRONG!!!
>
> Maybe we should advocate ActiveX controls :D
>
> Tom

By the way, did you guys know that Mozilla.org links to CX on the
plugins page?

http://plugindoc.mozdev.org/linux.html

Check the bottom of the page.

They even bring Wine into it, and compliment Codeweavers for their
support of the Wine project.

Damn decent of them, really.

But, whatever.

Holly

[Andreas Mohr]

Hi,

On Wed, Jul 06, 2005 at 01:46:06PM +0200, Holly Bostick wrote:
> By the way, did you guys know that Mozilla.org links to CX on the
> plugins page?
>
> http://plugindoc.mozdev.org/linux.html
>
> Check the bottom of the page.
>
> They even bring Wine into it, and compliment Codeweavers for their
> support of the Wine project.
>
> Damn decent of them, really.
>
> But, whatever.
>
> Holly

Do I sense some slight disagreement in this mail? ;-)

Well, I for one am slightly astonished about that FireFox button reaction.

The whole world is talking about the lack of interoperability or community
efforts within the OSS community, and here we are blindly rejecting
any attempt to go into such a direction.

So, while it can very easily be considered not very "PC" to place a specific
Mozilla button on the main page, a non-specific "you may get a
standards-compliant browser here" button surely cannot hurt?
(provided a decent web site exists for such an effort, and provided we
really want to do that)

I mean, *did* we have a huge amount of pain from all the non-standard
web pages caused by the "less than perfectly" interoperable Intrusion Engine,
or didn't we?
And *did* we have huge pains from the continually reoccurring security
issues of IE or didn't we?

Next time you tell us we should remove the donation button from the
web page since it distracts users...

Andreas Mohr

Yes but anyone looking a wine knows about Linux and knows about the  
ammount crap to expect for IE be it on wine or windows

I find it hard to imagine that anyone coming to wine needs to be made  
aware of FF or any other non-IE browser.

The Open-standards link suggested would be a good idea for a link page but  
I agree with Marcus that it is not needed on the front page.

Why not some worthy appeal buttons as well , Tsunami victims are less  
important than FireFox?

m2c ;)

On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 14:27:12 +0200, Andreas Mohr  
 wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Wed, Jul 06, 2005 at 01:46:06PM +0200, Holly Bostick wrote:
> > By the way, did you guys know that Mozilla.org links to CX on the
> > plugins page?
> >
> > http://plugindoc.mozdev.org/linux.html
> >
> > Check the bottom of the page.
> >
> > They even bring Wine into it, and compliment Codeweavers for their
> > support of the Wine project.
> >
> > Damn decent of them, really.
> >
> > But, whatever.
> >
> > Holly
>
> Do I sense some slight disagreement in this mail? ;-)
>
> Well, I for one am slightly astonished about that FireFox button  
> reaction.
>
> The whole world is talking about the lack of interoperability or  
> community
> efforts within the OSS community, and here we are blindly rejecting
> any attempt to go into such a direction.
>
> So, while it can very easily be considered not very "PC" to place a  
> specific
> Mozilla button on the main page, a non-specific "you may get a
> standards-compliant browser here" button surely cannot hurt?
> (provided a decent web site exists for such an effort, and provided we
> really want to do that)
>
> I mean, *did* we have a huge amount of pain from all the non-standard
> web pages caused by the "less than perfectly" interoperable Intrusion  
> Engine,
> or didn't we?
> And *did* we have huge pains from the continually reoccurring security
> issues of IE or didn't we?
>
> Next time you tell us we should remove the donation button from the
> web page since it distracts users...
>
> Andreas Mohr

[Marcelo Duarte]

Wine uses an Mozilla ActiveX in shdocvw, and Jacek is using Gecko in 
another part, forcing the user to have Firefox, no?
In another side, the user of Wine, is using Linux and Firefox or another 
Open Source Browser, not IE.

[e-mail] escreveu:
> Yes but anyone looking a wine knows about Linux and knows about the  
> ammount crap to expect for IE be it on wine or windows
>
> I find it hard to imagine that anyone coming to wine needs to be made  
> aware of FF or any other non-IE browser.
>
> The Open-standards link suggested would be a good idea for a link page 
> but  I agree with Marcus that it is not needed on the front page.
>
> Why not some worthy appeal buttons as well , Tsunami victims are less  
> important than FireFox?
>
> m2c ;)
>
> On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 14:27:12 +0200, Andreas Mohr  
>  wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 06, 2005 at 01:46:06PM +0200, Holly Bostick wrote:
> > > By the way, did you guys know that Mozilla.org links to CX on the
> > > plugins page?
> > >
> > > http://plugindoc.mozdev.org/linux.html
> > >
> > > Check the bottom of the page.
> > >
> > > They even bring Wine into it, and compliment Codeweavers for their
> > > support of the Wine project.
> > >
> > > Damn decent of them, really.
> > >
> > > But, whatever.
> > >
> > > Holly
> >
> > Do I sense some slight disagreement in this mail? ;-)
> >
> > Well, I for one am slightly astonished about that FireFox button  
> > reaction.
> >
> > The whole world is talking about the lack of interoperability or  
> > community
> > efforts within the OSS community, and here we are blindly rejecting
> > any attempt to go into such a direction.
> >
> > So, while it can very easily be considered not very "PC" to place a  
> > specific
> > Mozilla button on the main page, a non-specific "you may get a
> > standards-compliant browser here" button surely cannot hurt?
> > (provided a decent web site exists for such an effort, and provided we
> > really want to do that)
> >
> > I mean, *did* we have a huge amount of pain from all the non-standard
> > web pages caused by the "less than perfectly" interoperable 
> > Intrusion  Engine,
> > or didn't we?
> > And *did* we have huge pains from the continually reoccurring security
> > issues of IE or didn't we?
> >
> > Next time you tell us we should remove the donation button from the
> > web page since it distracts users...
> >
> > Andreas Mohr

[Marcelo Duarte]

Wine uses an Mozilla ActiveX in shdocvw, and Jacek is using Gecko in 
another part, forcing the user to have Firefox, no?
In another side, the user of Wine, is using Linux and Firefox or another 
Open Source Browser, not IE.

[e-mail] escreveu:
> Yes but anyone looking a wine knows about Linux and knows about the  
> ammount crap to expect for IE be it on wine or windows
>
> I find it hard to imagine that anyone coming to wine needs to be made  
> aware of FF or any other non-IE browser.
>
> The Open-standards link suggested would be a good idea for a link page 
> but  I agree with Marcus that it is not needed on the front page.
>
> Why not some worthy appeal buttons as well , Tsunami victims are less  
> important than FireFox?
>
> m2c ;)
>
> On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 14:27:12 +0200, Andreas Mohr  
>  wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 06, 2005 at 01:46:06PM +0200, Holly Bostick wrote:
> > > By the way, did you guys know that Mozilla.org links to CX on the
> > > plugins page?
> > >
> > > http://plugindoc.mozdev.org/linux.html
> > >
> > > Check the bottom of the page.
> > >
> > > They even bring Wine into it, and compliment Codeweavers for their
> > > support of the Wine project.
> > >
> > > Damn decent of them, really.
> > >
> > > But, whatever.
> > >
> > > Holly
> >
> > Do I sense some slight disagreement in this mail? ;-)
> >
> > Well, I for one am slightly astonished about that FireFox button  
> > reaction.
> >
> > The whole world is talking about the lack of interoperability or  
> > community
> > efforts within the OSS community, and here we are blindly rejecting
> > any attempt to go into such a direction.
> >
> > So, while it can very easily be considered not very "PC" to place a  
> > specific
> > Mozilla button on the main page, a non-specific "you may get a
> > standards-compliant browser here" button surely cannot hurt?
> > (provided a decent web site exists for such an effort, and provided we
> > really want to do that)
> >
> > I mean, *did* we have a huge amount of pain from all the non-standard
> > web pages caused by the "less than perfectly" interoperable 
> > Intrusion  Engine,
> > or didn't we?
> > And *did* we have huge pains from the continually reoccurring security
> > issues of IE or didn't we?
> >
> > Next time you tell us we should remove the donation button from the
> > web page since it distracts users...
> >
> > Andreas Mohr

[Tom Wickline]

On 7/6/05, [e-mail]  wrote:
> Yes but anyone looking a wine knows about Linux and knows about the
> ammount crap to expect for IE be it on wine or windows
>
> I find it hard to imagine that anyone coming to wine needs to be made
> aware of FF or any other non-IE browser.

I'm glad you think all windows users are aware of all the different
options out there.
> The Open-standards link suggested would be a good idea for a link page but
> I agree with Marcus that it is not needed on the front page.

Yea that's the real answer here.. Lets bury it so people have to run
across it by accident to find it..
> Why not some worthy appeal buttons as well , Tsunami victims are less
> important than FireFox?

This line is off subject
> m2c ;)

You can send your pocket change to the WPF :-)

Tom
>

On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:47:59 +0200, Tom Wickline   
wrote:
> > Why not some worthy appeal buttons as well , Tsunami victims are less
> > important than FireFox?
>
> This line is off subject

This whole thread if off-subject , let's get back to wine=dev.

[Tom Wickline]

On 7/7/05, [e-mail]  wrote:
> This whole thread if off-subject , let's get back to wine=dev.

How is this thread off subject? It has to do with the site correct? So therefore
its of subject! If you don't care for this subject just move on to one
that you find of interest.

Tom

[Kuba Ober]

On Thursday 07 July 2005 09:07, Tom Wickline wrote:
> On 7/7/05, [e-mail]  wrote:
> > This whole thread if off-subject , let's get back to wine=dev.
>
> How is this thread off subject? It has to do with the site correct? So
> therefore its of subject! If you don't care for this subject just move on
> to one that you find of interest.

I guess people are really getting emotional about this.

I think that there's no point in doing browser promotion. I bet that if one 
would look at overall clikthrough rates for those browser buttons, they'd 
prove to be a waste of bandwidth. We're not pron peddlers and should know 
better, right? It's enough they waste bandwidth, why should we??

Anywy, I think that a hard line has to be drawn and no promotions should be 
allowed for non-sponsoring entities. Otherwise we'll have a flamethrowing 
party everytime someone brings up the subject. It'll be like this: "oh, but 
ReactOS shares code with us, why not put up their banner?" and then "hey, the 
this-and-that project is 'related' in suchandso way, add the banner", and so 
on. And then in a year or so winehq will become a banner page where the 
number of bytes relegated to banners will be bigger than the number of bytes 
for html itself. That'll be just stupid, but that's where things may 
ultimately end.

I don't mind the paypal and codeweavers banners, and if wine gets another 
major hoster/sponsor, their banner will make sense, but besides that it just 
takes the focus away from the project.

Why not put up a links page in wiki, and have a direct link to it in the 
Support sidebar? It could be called "Related Projects" or somesuch.

Cheers, Kuba

Standard disclaimer: I won't mind banners after wine gets to 1.0, because by 
then I'll be retired and will have other things to worry about (pun 
intended).

[Tom Wickline]

On 7/7/05, Kuba Ober  wrote:
> I guess people are really getting emotional about this.

Yes, and before a ugly Flame War breaks out it would be best if we
just drop this subject and move on........

Cheers,

Tom

P.S.
What makes Linux and OSS great is the people that use it!

[Jules Richardson]

On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 14:27 +0200, Andreas Mohr wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Wed, Jul 06, 2005 at 01:46:06PM +0200, Holly Bostick wrote:
> > By the way, did you guys know that Mozilla.org links to CX on the
> > plugins page?
> >
> > http://plugindoc.mozdev.org/linux.html
> >
> > Check the bottom of the page.
> >
> > They even bring Wine into it, and compliment Codeweavers for their
> > support of the Wine project.
> >
> > Damn decent of them, really.
> >
> > But, whatever.
> >
> > Holly
>
> Do I sense some slight disagreement in this mail? ;-)
>
> Well, I for one am slightly astonished about that FireFox button reaction.

There are lots of good standards-compliant browsers out there though,
free and otherwise - personally I wouldn't want to see the wine project
advocating one specific browser over all the others (not that I see any
need for the project to recommend any kind of browser anyway!).

A big part of the OSS movement is freedom of choice for the user based
on their own needs; saying "you should be using this particular piece of
software" makes you no better than the big players IMHO. (personally I
find the whole "get firefox" marketing campaign slightly distasteful for
that very reason)

My 2 cents anyway...

cheers

Jules

[Tom Wickline]

On 7/6/05, Jules Richardson  wrote:
> A big part of the OSS movement is freedom of choice for the user based
> on their own needs; saying "you should be using this particular piece of
> software" makes you no better than the big players IMHO.

What its saying is here is a alternative to IE.. It's free give it a
try and if you don't care for it ... Guess what? you can remove it and
your $#%# Operating system won't fall apart!

(personally I
> find the whole "get firefox" marketing campaign slightly distasteful for
> that very reason)

The Mozilla foundation is a non-profit entity, and this is there way
of ADVERTISING in a world where advertising is very expensive. If they
went to pop-ups I guess you would be tickled pink?
> My 2 cents anyway...

Send your pocket change to the WPF.

Tom
> cheers
>
> Jules

[Tom Wickline]

On 7/6/05, Holly Bostick  wrote:
> By the way, did you guys know that Mozilla.org links to CX on the
> plugins page?

Yes, I have always been aware of this page/plug.
> http://plugindoc.mozdev.org/linux.html
>
> Check the bottom of the page.
>
> They even bring Wine into it, and compliment Codeweavers for their
> support of the Wine project.
>
> Damn decent of them, really.

What can I say, I agree....
> But, whatever.

:-)

Tom
> Holly

[David D. Hagood]

As I see it, Firefox links to CX because CX enhances Firefox - it allows 
FF to run plugins that it could not otherwise run.

*IF* Firefox enhanced Wine - by providing an MSHTML-compatible object, 
for example - then it would make sense to provide a link, as then FF 
would enhance Wine.

But FF does not directly enhance Wine, then there is no symmetry between 
the two examples, so using the FF example to justify WineHQ having a Get 
FF button is invalid.

This does not mean there are no other reasons to have a Get FF button, 
however.

[Tom Wickline]

On 7/7/05, David D. Hagood  wrote:
> As I see it, Firefox links to CX because CX enhances Firefox - it allows
> FF to run plugins that it could not otherwise run.

True the Linux version of FireFox/Mozilla.....
> *IF* Firefox enhanced Wine - by providing an MSHTML-compatible object,
> for example - then it would make sense to provide a link, as then FF
> would enhance Wine.

Man i'm glad i'm *not* setting in front of your box!
FireFox enhances Wine is a large number of ways, how you ask?

Install the Windows release of FireFox into Wine and set it as your
default browser. Then go and get yourself some Windows only browser
plug-ins and install them into Wine. Fire up FireFox in the place of
IE and use those plug-ins within FF and get off the IE crack pipe.

And this not to say that there aren't many other valid reasons why
"Get FireFox" isn't of importance!
> But FF does not directly enhance Wine, then there is no symmetry between
> the two examples, so using the FF example to justify WineHQ having a Get
> FF button is invalid.

WineHQ doesn't have to do squat.. So saying WineHQ having to get a
button is incorrect within its self! This is a open debate on if we
should help promote, advocate another OSS project, and that project
just happens to be FireFox.

Tom

[Kuba Ober]

> WineHQ doesn't have to do squat.. So saying WineHQ having to get a
> button is incorrect within its self! This is a open debate on if we
> should help promote, advocate another OSS project, and that project
> just happens to be FireFox.

There are probably a hundred large OSS projects worthy of promoting, and 
thousands smaller ones that would deserve that too. What makes FireFox so 
special, and what business wine has in such a promotion of *any* OSS project? 
Since when wine project acquired a promotional/evangelization target for 
*other* software? Last time I checked wine was about enabling windows 
software to run on unices, not 3rd party evangelization...

Given limited resources, anything unrelated to the main project goal is really 
dissolving what little resources are there...

Cheers, Kuba

On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 17:37:07 +0200, Kuba Ober  wrote:
> evangelization

That's the word, that's why I thought is was missed placed.

After that I really could not give a flying f...ox what anyone puts on  
wineHQ anyway.

Cioa baminos.

[Jules Richardson]

On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 18:12 +0200, [e-mail] wrote:
> could not give a flying f...ox

ha ha! That'd make a good button linking to all the other decent free
browsers out there ;)

Why clutter the front page with that? I dont see any relation to wine.

In any case anyone who has not already heard about firefox must have has  
his/her head stuck between a fat lady's thighs of for the last two years.

Why do you suggest this?

On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 15:48:51 +0200, Tom Wickline   
wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Would anyone object to a "Get FireFox" button on our front page?
> I know I can send a patch and wait and see if there is objection to it.
> I just think its better to ask before hand.
>
> If there is NO objection ill send a patch in a couple days,
> or Jer can beat me to it ;)
>
> Tom