re: Potential forum at linuxquestions.org

[Dan Kegel]

Mike Hearn wrote:
> It's not meant to replace wine-users, and especially not wine-devel of
> course.
>
> Why a forum rather than a mailing list?

That question, plus all the 'advantages' you list,
indicate that you do indeed intend it to replace
wine-users, at least for some users.

A web interface that let you post to the mailing list would
be fine.  A web forum would not.  It would mean that, if I
wanted to answer user questions, I'd have to get used to
another strange interface that probably has crappy indexing
and is full of fruity HTML that gets in the way.
I have read linuxquestions.org a bit, and don't like it much;
I dislike the idea of encouraging people to use closed discussion
forums like that, which don't support any sort of external archiving.

Now, if you want to make things easier for users, there's
room for improvement on the winehq forums page.  For starters,
the Forums link on the main page is buried a bit; it ought
to be higher up (say, right after FAQ; the HowTo link should
be part of Documentation).
On the Forums page, the [e-mail] list should
probably be the first thing on the page.
The newsgroup link is currently wrong(!); it's currently
   news://comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine/
but should be
   news:comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine

And we should probably link to the newsgroups at gmane.org, too.

Shall I prepare patches for the website to implement these changes
so people can see what I'm suggesting?
- Dan

Potential forum at linuxquestions.org

[Mike Hearn]

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:15:09 -0800, Sir Dan Kegel scribed thus:
> That question, plus all the 'advantages' you list,
> indicate that you do indeed intend it to replace
> wine-users, at least for some users.

Yes, for those users for whom it's clearly not working (otherwise why are
there so many wine related posts in random web forums scattered around the
net)?
> A web interface that let you post to the mailing list would
> be fine.  A web forum would not.  It would mean that, if I
> wanted to answer user questions, I'd have to get used to
> another strange interface that probably has crappy indexing
> and is full of fruity HTML that gets in the way.

Actually, the LQ archives are indexed very well by Google (and they use a
heavily stripped form of HTML). It also has a built in search feature, as
well as an instant "threads similar to this one".
> I have read linuxquestions.org a bit, and don't like it much;
> I dislike the idea of encouraging people to use closed discussion
> forums like that, which don't support any sort of external archiving.

I don't see how they are closed. They're indexed by Google, it has its own
search engine built in (which is more than wine-users does), and anybody
can access them without needing to sign up.
> Shall I prepare patches for the website to implement these changes
> so people can see what I'm suggesting?

Go ahead, but a few minor rejigs to WineHQ are not a replacement for a
web forum. Or do you think we should shut down #winehq too, on the grounds
that it's not archived at all and you need to use strange clients with
fruity syntax?

thanks -mike

Potential forum at linuxquestions.org

[Shachar Shemesh]

Mike Hearn wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:15:09 -0800, Sir Dan Kegel scribed thus:
> > A web interface that let you post to the mailing list would
> > be fine.  A web forum would not.  It would mean that, if I
> > wanted to answer user questions, I'd have to get used to
> > another strange interface that probably has crappy indexing
> > and is full of fruity HTML that gets in the way.
>
> Actually, the LQ archives are indexed very well by Google (and they use a
> heavily stripped form of HTML). It also has a built in search feature, as
> well as an instant "threads similar to this one".

But they don't solve the fundemental problem for me - I need a "push" 
interface. Experience has shown that I am totally unable to follow a 
forum where I need to go out and check whether anything got updated. 
With mailing list (and also nntp), new stuff automatically arrives at my 
box, and is clearly marked as new. For that reason, any web only 
interface is totally unacceptable.

I understand that many people, mostly newbies, find the mailing 
interface every bit as confusing. That's fine with me. That's why a both 
solution is necessary.

Shachar

Potential forum at linuxquestions.org

[Roderick Colenbrander]

Useally forums have an option to notify you when replies were added to a 
thread you replied to.

Roderick

On Thursday 13 November 2003 11:52, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
> Mike Hearn wrote:
> > On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:15:09 -0800, Sir Dan Kegel scribed thus:
> > > A web interface that let you post to the mailing list would
> > > be fine.  A web forum would not.  It would mean that, if I
> > > wanted to answer user questions, I'd have to get used to
> > > another strange interface that probably has crappy indexing
> > > and is full of fruity HTML that gets in the way.
> >
> > Actually, the LQ archives are indexed very well by Google (and they use a
> > heavily stripped form of HTML). It also has a built in search feature, as
> > well as an instant "threads similar to this one".
>
> But they don't solve the fundemental problem for me - I need a "push"
> interface. Experience has shown that I am totally unable to follow a
> forum where I need to go out and check whether anything got updated.
> With mailing list (and also nntp), new stuff automatically arrives at my
> box, and is clearly marked as new. For that reason, any web only
> interface is totally unacceptable.
>
> I understand that many people, mostly newbies, find the mailing
> interface every bit as confusing. That's fine with me. That's why a both
> solution is necessary.
>          Shachar

Potential forum at linuxquestions.org

[Mike Hearn]

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:24:28 +0100, Sir Roderick Colenbrander scribed
thus:
> Useally forums have an option to notify you when replies were added to a 
> thread you replied to.

Yeah, and in fact that's on by default on LQ.org, so at least for me it's
a non-issue... I don't find it hard to keep track of threads at any rate.

Potential forum at linuxquestions.org

[Francois Gouget]

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Dan Kegel wrote:
[...]
> Now, if you want to make things easier for users, there's
> room for improvement on the winehq forums page.  For starters,
> the Forums link on the main page is buried a bit; it ought
> to be higher up (say, right after FAQ; the HowTo link should
> be part of Documentation).

The current location looked ok to me.
> On the Forums page, the [e-mail] list should
> probably be the first thing on the page.

Yes, we could tweak this. What about the following order:

wine-announce
  wine-users
  wine-devel
  wine-patches
  wine-cvs
  wine-releases
  wine-license
  wine-bugs
  wine-tests-results
> The newsgroup link is currently wrong(!); it's currently
>    news://comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine/
> but should be
>    news:comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine

Where did you find the broken link? I found one like you describe in a
Wine Weekly News 2000/01/17, but the forum page looks ok:

<a href="news:comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine">comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine</a>
> And we should probably link to the newsgroups at gmane.org, too.

The newsgroup is not indexed at Gmane, only the mailing lists are. I can
add a link like so:

[(Un-)Subscribe] [Archive] [Gmane] [e-mail]
...
> Shall I prepare patches for the website to implement these changes
> so people can see what I'm suggesting?

Well, I attached a patch proposal...

Potential forum at linuxquestions.org

[Dan Kegel]

Francois Gouget wrote:
> > On the Forums page, the [e-mail] list should
> > probably be the first thing on the page.
>
> Yes, we could tweak this. What about the following order:
>
> wine-announce
>   wine-users
>   wine-devel
>   wine-patches
>   wine-cvs
>   wine-releases
>   wine-license
>   wine-bugs
>   wine-tests-results

i.e. move 'users' up right after 'announce'.  That's perfect.
> > The newsgroup link is currently wrong(!); it's currently
> >   news://comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine/
>
> Where did you find the broken link?

Would you believe Mozilla 1.5 did it?  Hard to believe, but true.  Sounds like a bug in mozilla!
> > And we should probably link to the newsgroups [gatewayed mailing lists] at gmane.org, too.
>
> ...
> diff -u -r1.9 forums.template
> --- templates/en/forums.template	4 Sep 2003 15:55:45 -0000	1.9
> +++ templates/en/forums.template	15 Nov 2003 15:34:07 -0000
> ...
> -
>
> <li>
> - [<a href="http://www.winehq.org/mailman/listinfo/wine-users">(Un-)Subscribe</a>]
> - [<a href="http://www.winehq.org/hypermail/wine-users/">Archive</a>]
> - [<a href="http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.emulators.wine.users">Gmane</a>]
> - <a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a><br>
> - A medium traffic (10/day) open list for end-user discussions.<br><br>

Oddly, the 's' needs to be dropped from the gmane version; it's wine.user, not wine.users.
I would suggest also linking to the nntp interface at gmane, which is the whole
point of gmane.  With those two changes:
> -
>
> <li>
> - [<a href="http://www.winehq.org/mailman/listinfo/wine-users">(Un-)Subscribe</a>]
> - [<a href="news://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.emulators.wine.user">via newsreader</a>]
> - [<a href="http://www.winehq.org/hypermail/wine-users/">Archive 1</a>]
> - [<a href="http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.emulators.wine.user%3EArchive 2</a>]

Also, for wine-devel, I'd suggest adding a third archive,
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=wine-devel&r=1&w=2
The marc interface is like vi: some people will hate it, but it's very good for
searching.  Very, very good.

(BTW, there's another archive at http://www.mail-archive.com/wine-devel%40winehq.org/
but it doesn't offer any advantages over the ones you already have, I think.)
> --- wwn/wn20000717_52.xml	25 Jul 2003 18:45:03 -0000	1.4
> +++ wwn/wn20000717_52.xml	15 Nov 2003 15:15:07 -0000
> @@ -163,7 +163,7 @@
>
>  <p />
>
> G&#233;rard posted some follow-up of a debugging discussion he had on 
> -<a href="news:///comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine">
> +<a href="news:comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine">
>  comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine</a> (Title was 'Wine with ASS won't run
>  stripped binaries').

Good change, thanks.
- Dan

Potential forum at linuxquestions.org

[Francois Gouget]

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003, Dan Kegel wrote:
[...]
> > > The newsgroup link is currently wrong(!); it's currently
> > >   news://comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine/
> >
> > Where did you find the broken link?
>
> Would you believe Mozilla 1.5 did it?  Hard to believe, but true.  Sounds like a bug in mozilla!

I'm using Mozilla 1.5 too but it seems to be working here (didn't fully
test though).

[...]
> Oddly, the 's' needs to be dropped from the gmane version; it's wine.user, not wine.users.

Yes, I believe they just made a typo when naming the gmane newsgroup.

[...]
> I would suggest also linking to the nntp interface at gmane, which is the whole
> point of gmane.  With those two changes:
> > -
> >
> > <li>
> > - [<a href="http://www.winehq.org/mailman/listinfo/wine-users">(Un-)Subscribe</a>]
> > - [<a href="news://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.emulators.wine.user">via newsreader</a>]
> > - [<a href="http://www.winehq.org/hypermail/wine-users/">Archive 1</a>]
> > - [<a href="http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.emulators.wine.user%3EArchive 2</a>]
>
> Also, for wine-devel, I'd suggest adding a third archive,
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=wine-devel&r=1&w=2
> The marc interface is like vi: some people will hate it, but it's very good for
> searching.  Very, very good.

I think it's best not to multiply links and interfaces too much.
Let's get the Gmane links in first. Sending patch...