Wine lecture slides

[Shachar Shemesh]

Hi all,

I have placed on my site the slides for a presentation I gave at a local 
LUG about Wine. The slides are in English, in PDF format. You can get 
them at http://shemesh.biz/lectures.html

The lecture was given several months ago, but I'm going to repeat it in 
about a month. If you have any comments, please send them over for 
inclusion for next time.

Shachar

[Mike Hearn]

This is a pretty rocking presentation. I may steal it sometime (if I
ever give a presentation on Wine), so I hope it's under a free license
:) Some notes as I read:

* I say Wine is an emulator. I don't know how to read the official
definition, it could go both ways, but I've found the whole "Wine Is Not
an Emulator" thing just confuses newbies :)

* Slide 12 - s/Challange/Challenge/

* Slide 17 - 3rd file type is NE (win16 binary). PE = Portable
Executable. NE = ?????, but the N is bound to stand for something
stupid, like "new" or whatever....

* Slide 18 - s/relocate/mmap/ ??

* Slide 21 - s/contextes/contexts/. I'd also note that the wineserver
does a lot of things the windows kernel does in the real mccoy - for
instance the registry is available from inside kernel mode also...

* Slide 23 - I sent a patch ages ago to make Wine autodetect RH9 and add
--with-nptl if needed

keep on truckin' -mike :)

[Marcelo Duarte]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Hearn" 
To: "Shachar Shemesh"
> - I say Wine is an emulator. I don't know how to read the official
>
> definition, it could go both ways, but I've found the whole "Wine Is Not
> an Emulator" thing just confuses newbies :)

I taste to think that the "Wine is a simulator", because it simulates the
Windows environment. Poverty not?
> - Slide 17 - 3rd file type is NE (win16 binary). PE = Portable
>
> Executable. NE = ?????, but the N is bound to stand for something
> stupid, like "new" or whatever....

Yes, NE = New Executable, as the opposite to format MZ, that was the
predominant format until the new creation. Already MZ I do not remember what
it means.

M.

[Shachar Shemesh]

Marcelo Duarte wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike Hearn" 
> To: "Shachar Shemesh"
> > - I say Wine is an emulator. I don't know how to read the official
> >
> > definition, it could go both ways, but I've found the whole "Wine Is Not
> > an Emulator" thing just confuses newbies :)
>
> I taste to think that the "Wine is a simulator", because it simulates the
> Windows environment. Poverty not?
> > - Slide 17 - 3rd file type is NE (win16 binary). PE = Portable
> >
> > Executable. NE = ?????, but the N is bound to stand for something
> > stupid, like "new" or whatever....
>
> Yes, NE = New Executable, as the opposite to format MZ, that was the
> predominant format until the new creation. Already MZ I do not remember what
> it means.
>
> M.

MZ are the first two bytes of the file, identifying it as an executable. 
I'm not aware that they mean anything at all.

Shachar

[Eric Pouech]

Shachar Shemesh wrote:
> Marcelo Duarte wrote:
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Hearn" 
> > To: "Shachar Shemesh"
> > > - I say Wine is an emulator. I don't know how to read the official
> > >
> > > definition, it could go both ways, but I've found the whole "Wine Is Not
> > > an Emulator" thing just confuses newbies :)
> >
> > I taste to think that the "Wine is a simulator", because it simulates the
> > Windows environment. Poverty not?
> > > - Slide 17 - 3rd file type is NE (win16 binary). PE = Portable
> > >
> > > Executable. NE = ?????, but the N is bound to stand for something
> > > stupid, like "new" or whatever....
> >
> > Yes, NE = New Executable, as the opposite to format MZ, that was the
> > predominant format until the new creation. Already MZ I do not 
> > remember what
> > it means.
> >
> > M.
>
> MZ are the first two bytes of the file, identifying it as an executable. 
> I'm not aware that they mean anything at all.

IIRC, they were the initial of the author(s) of the file format
A+

[Ove Kaaven]

søn, 21.09.2003 kl. 08.46 skrev Eric Pouech:
> > MZ are the first two bytes of the file, identifying it as an executable. 
> > I'm not aware that they mean anything at all.
>
> IIRC, they were the initial of the author(s) of the file format

Mark Zbikowski. But that's just a theory, I haven't heard about anybody
really knowing for sure what it stands for, I think (many books mention
this theory, but never like it was a fact).

[Marcelo Duarte]

From: "Ove Kaaven" 
To: "Eric Pouech" 
Cc: "Shachar Shemesh" ; "Marcelo Duarte"
; "Wine Devel" 
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: Wine lecture slides
> søn, 21.09.2003 kl. 08.46 skrev Eric Pouech:
> > > MZ are the first two bytes of the file, identifying it as an

executable.
> > > I'm not aware that they mean anything at all.
> >
> > IIRC, they were the initial of the author(s) of the file format
>
> Mark Zbikowski. But that's just a theory, I haven't heard about anybody
> really knowing for sure what it stands for, I think (many books mention
> this theory, but never like it was a fact).

I also read this theory in a book, and perhaps either exactly this name. I
find that he was in the book "The MSDOS Bible" of Ray Duncan.

[Eric Pouech]

Shachar Shemesh wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I have placed on my site the slides for a presentation I gave at a local 
> LUG about Wine. The slides are in English, in PDF format. You can get 
> them at http://shemesh.biz/lectures.html
>
> The lecture was given several months ago, but I'm going to repeat it in 
> about a month. If you have any comments, please send them over for 
> inclusion for next time.
>         Shachar

S6: what about Corel ???
S8: ReWind is not for TG. TG is not based on ReWind. ReWind serves as a 
X11-cross platform between Wine and WineX.
There's also Odin (Win32 subsystem on OS/2), but the shared code based 
is less than with ReactOS.
S17: I would complement "re-implementing" by the fact we translate Win 
calls into local OS calls (mostly)
S18: in Win DLL terminology, EntryPoint is the main init function from a 
module. Exports/Imports would be better here.
S20: I'm a bit confused with "all win32 Dlls are implemented as winelib 
apps". Firstly, a DLL is not an app. Secondly, from a pure technical 
point of view, we're talking here of two different things:
- win32 builtin DLLs are implemented as specific ELF shared library. The 
PE loader, when loading DLL, is able to load either builtin DLL or 
windows native DLLs.
- a winelib app, is an ELF executable (not shared library), which is 
able to execute as a Win32 application (loading DLLs, calling into 
(native/builtin) DLLs).
The wording here is perhaps short enough for a generic presentation, but 
it's IMO rather confusing.
S21: the first need of wineserver is that any wine application leaves in 
its own address space. So, all the interprocess 
communication/synchronisation has to be done somewhere => wineserver.

as a more generic comment, what about adding a couple of screen shots ? 
(just to complement on the alpha side of Wine => "it does work in lots 
of cases")

anyway, I think it would be good to share those slides (there are 
already a couple of them on WineHQ) if we want to keep on making this 
type of presentations to LUG and other events.

A+

[Dmitry Timoshkov]

"Eric Pouech"  wrote:
> S8: ReWind is not for TG. TG is not based on ReWind. ReWind serves as a 
> X11-cross platform between Wine and WineX.

I do not want to start a flame war, but you just repeat what TG wants
ReWind to be looking like on public. That's simply not true. Right now
it's an one directional way: Wine -> ReWind -> WineX. And in my opinion
that's an exactly an idea behind that.

[Eric Pouech]

> I do not want to start a flame war, but you just repeat what TG wants
> ReWind to be looking like on public. That's simply not true. Right now
> it's an one directional way: Wine -> ReWind -> WineX. And in my opinion
> that's an exactly an idea behind that.

As of today, If something happens, it's more Wine -> WineX than anything 
else.
A+

[Ove Kaaven]

søn, 21.09.2003 kl. 10.30 skrev Dmitry Timoshkov:
> "Eric Pouech"  wrote:
> > S8: ReWind is not for TG. TG is not based on ReWind. ReWind serves as a 
> > X11-cross platform between Wine and WineX.
>
> I do not want to start a flame war, but you just repeat what TG wants
> ReWind to be looking like on public. That's simply not true. Right now
> it's an one directional way: Wine -> ReWind -> WineX. And in my opinion
> that's an exactly an idea behind that.

Yes, that's the way ReWind currently work (and the ReWind maintenance
tools are written for that). After all, new work from WineX preferably
flows like this: WineX -> Wine -> ReWind. It's a unidirectional circle
(and I don't think Alexandre will apply anything that's ReWind-only
without permission (if he did, he'd probably have to add ReWind to
Wine's copyright files anyway, which is probably not fun), so this
unidirectional arrangement benefit Wine too).

Of course, the current laziness of the ReWind maintainers is another
matter... it's a long time since "they" merged in any new patches from
Wine and WineX... both have a few things which should be merged sooner
or later...

[Dimitrie O. Paun]

On September 21, 2003 03:06 am, Eric Pouech wrote:
> - a winelib app, is an ELF executable (not shared library), which is
>
> able to execute as a Win32 application (loading DLLs, calling into
> (native/builtin) DLLs).

Well, not really -- that would be ideal, but at the moment a winelib
app is an ELF shared library (.so file) which is loaded by wine.
That's why we have that startup script for winelib apps...

[Eric Pouech]

Dimitrie O. Paun wrote:
> On September 21, 2003 03:06 am, Eric Pouech wrote:
> > - a winelib app, is an ELF executable (not shared library), which is
> >
> > able to execute as a Win32 application (loading DLLs, calling into
> > (native/builtin) DLLs).
>
> Well, not really -- that would be ideal, but at the moment a winelib
> app is an ELF shared library (.so file) which is loaded by wine.
> That's why we have that startup script for winelib apps...

ooops... did I really write that... looking for some brown paper bag...
A+

[Shachar Shemesh]

Eric Pouech wrote:
> S17: I would complement "re-implementing" by the fact we translate Win 
> calls into local OS calls (mostly)

Please remeber these are slides that accompanied a two hours lecture. We 
are reimplementing Win32. We are using "backend" engines for the actual 
work (as Wine is not an OS). One such backend is Posix X11. Another is 
ncurses. A third is whatever you would call what ReactOs are using.
> S20: I'm a bit confused with "all win32 Dlls are implemented as 
> winelib apps". Firstly, a DLL is not an app. Secondly, from a pure 
> technical point of view, we're talking here of two different things:
> - win32 builtin DLLs are implemented as specific ELF shared library.
>
> The PE loader, when loading DLL, is able to load either builtin DLL or 
> windows native DLLs.
> - a winelib app, is an ELF executable (not shared library), which is
>
> able to execute as a Win32 application (loading DLLs, calling into 
> (native/builtin) DLLs).

Like Dimi said, a winelib app is an ELF DLL that is capable of executing 
both Posix and Win32 functions. It cannot load itself, and needs Wine to 
load it. Wine's builtin DLLs are no different, except they usually don't 
have a wrapper.
> The wording here is perhaps short enough for a generic presentation, 
> but it's IMO rather confusing.

I rather think it's real life that is confusing :-)
> as a more generic comment, what about adding a couple of screen shots 
> ? (just to complement on the alpha side of Wine => "it does work in 
> lots of cases")

These slides are part of a lecture. Screenshots pale in comparison to 
actually loading IE and Word.
> anyway, I think it would be good to share those slides (there are 
> already a couple of them on WineHQ) if we want to keep on making this 
> type of presentations to LUG and other events.

That's why I posted them (I wrote them anyways, and someone may find the 
useful).

Shachar

[Francois Gouget]

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I have placed on my site the slides for a presentation I gave at a local
> LUG about Wine. The slides are in English, in PDF format. You can get
> them at http://shemesh.biz/lectures.html
>
> The lecture was given several months ago, but I'm going to repeat it in
> about a month. If you have any comments, please send them over for
> inclusion for next time.

I think it would be nice to point to such presentations from WineHQ's
'How to contribute to Wine' page. Maybe something like this would do:

Index: templates/en/contributing.template
===================================================================
RCS file: /home/wine/lostwages/templates/en/contributing.template,v
retrieving revision 1.15
diff -u -r1.15 contributing.template
--- templates/en/contributing.template	9 Sep 2003 14:34:58 -0000	1.15
+++ templates/en/contributing.template	22 Sep 2003 09:41:17 -0000
@@ -362,6 +362,17 @@
 <blockquote>

+    <p class="project">Present Wine at your LUG
+    <p>You can get more people to know about Wine and understand why it is
+      important by presenting Wine at your LUG. You can use one of the
+      following presentations as a starting point:
+    <ul>
+      <li><a href="http://shemesh.biz/lectures/HaifuxWine.pdf">Wine</a>
+        by Shachar Shemesh (2003)
+      <li><a href="http://www.lugod.org/presentations/crossover/">CrossOver
+        and Wine</a> by Francois Gouget (2002/10/01)
+    </ul>
+
     <a name="doc"></a>
     <h3>Documentation writing</h3>
     <p>Wine is in constant need of documentation updates.

I'm not sure I'd insist as much on how Wine started and the license
changes. IMHO it's more important to explain why Wine is important in
the global scheme of things because I feel this is often misunderstood.
But maybe that's just me and in any case it certainly depends on the
audience to some extent.

Some more comments:

* Slide 6

Wine did not start under the X11 license but under the GPL!
   See Alexandre's WineConf 2002 presentation (slide 8):
   http://www.codeweavers.com/about/news/talks/wineconf2002/wine-sandiego-mar20...

As was already pointed out, Corel was a big contributor to
   Wine and really helped it move forward.

s/Transgaming/TransGaming/
   s/Cross Over/CrossOver/

* Slide 8

s/Winehq/WineHQ/

* Slide 17

s/dependndancies/dependencies/

* Slide 19

s/dependancies/dependencies/
   s/noteable/notable/

* Slide 20

s/each Win32 DLL only depend/each Win32 DLL only depends/
   s/seperation/separation/
   s/Seperate/Separate/

* Slide 21

s/simulataniously/simultaneously/

* Slide 25

s/Tell sign:/Telltale sign:/
   s/acessable/accessible/

* Slide 26

Actually it's the managed mode that tends to cause focus and Z-order
problems, partly due to the difference in behavior between all the
window managers out there.

* Slide 27

There's no need for a dll override for the MFC since there is no
builtin implementation. A better example may be msvcrt or ole32.

s/Other need functions/Other needed functions/

[Francois Gouget]

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, Francois Gouget wrote:
[...]
> > The lecture was given several months ago, but I'm going to repeat it in
> > about a month. If you have any comments, please send them over for
> > inclusion for next time.

Maybe we could also announce such presentations on WineHQ's front page,
in the 'news' section...
We could start with the one you have next month. When/where is it?

[Tom]

Francois Gouget wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, Francois Gouget wrote:
> [...]
> > > The lecture was given several months ago, but I'm going to repeat it in
> > > about a month. If you have any comments, please send them over for
> > > inclusion for next time.
>
> Maybe we could also announce such presentations on WineHQ's front page,
> in the 'news' section...
> We could start with the one you have next month. When/where is it?

Hi all,

I know i'm replying to a old mail but, Hey I do this sort of thing ;)

I plan to ask if I can do another presentation at our local LUG (wake 
forest university) on wine.
And ive talked to people at the charlotte lug as well about a  presentation.
I think this kind of info would be usefull in our WWN as well. even if 
its a short blurb .... so & so will
be doing a presentationthe date, time, place....

I made the suggestion some time back that we could use a page with 
presentation info...
And on it add slides, info, facts, just good stuff to help people do 
"good presentations"
Why try to re-invent the wheel 10 times? and as time goes on we can 
update the info
and make sure it stays relatively current...

Any thoughts about this?

Tom