[bugzilla] donate to sponsoring bug

[sacchi antonio]

hello all.
I'm new here but I'd like to suggest something,
what do you think about this?
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/2940/wined.png

Maybe it will be good for old/hard bugs?

Thanks

[Nicklas Börjesson]

I suppose that this only will appear on some bugs and disregarding that people might put off fixing bugs waiting for it to become a "pay-bug".
Who's going to get the money? It seems quite common that people share credit on fixing bugs, should we burden Alexandre with the task of deciding that?
Wouldn't this rather be on "projects", than bugs? The bug mentioned feels more like a "project".

//Nicklas

-----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] on behalf of sacchi antonio
Sent: Wed 2009-09-16 11:47
To: [e-mail]
Subject: [bugzilla] donate to sponsoring bug

hello all.
I'm new here but I'd like to suggest something,
what do you think about this?
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/2940/wined.png

Maybe it will be good for old/hard bugs?

Thanks

[Tom Wickline]

Hello,

You could have the money go into the general WPF or WCF "Wine Conference
Fund"
But the problem is if say I donate $50.00 who's to say the bug I donate to
will be resolved
any time soon? Paypal only allows refunds up to 60 days, so how would you go
about a refund
if the bug wasn't fixed in say a year or more?

I think it would be hard to keep everyone happy, because as soon as people
donate to a bug
their going to expect something in return. And a refund most likely if the
bug isn't fixed.

Tom

2009/9/16 Nicklas Börjesson
> I suppose that this only will appear on some bugs and disregarding that
> people might put off fixing bugs waiting for it to become a "pay-bug".
> Who's going to get the money? It seems quite common that people share
> credit on fixing bugs, should we burden Alexandre with the task of deciding
> that?
> Wouldn't this rather be on "projects", than bugs? The bug mentioned feels
> more like a "project".
>
> //Nicklas
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] on behalf of sacchi antonio
> Sent: Wed 2009-09-16 11:47
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: [bugzilla] donate to sponsoring bug
>
> hello all.
> I'm new here but I'd like to suggest something,
> what do you think about this?
> http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/2940/wined.png
>
> Maybe it will be good for old/hard bugs?
>
> Thanks

[Francois Gouget]

On Wed, 16 Sep 2009, Tom Wickline wrote:
[...]
> But the problem is if say I donate $50.00 who's to say the bug I 
> donate to will be resolved any time soon? Paypal only allows refunds 
> up to 60 days, so how would you go about a refund if the bug wasn't 
> fixed in say a year or more?

The solution to this problem is 'pledges'. So when the bug is closed, 
those who pledged to give money are notified and can then decide for 
themselves whether to send the money or not.

Sure it means they may go back on their word, from some outsider's point 
of view, but at least they cannot complain, and Wine not getting the 
money would pretty much be business as usual anyway (unless reneged 
pledges detract from regular WPF donations).

[Tom Wickline]

What about a hybrid Donate/Pledge box? I'm aware there is a Donate section
on the main site. But could this somehow be Incorporated into the rest of
the site?
Bugs and Apps DB or would it just be tacky :)

Cheers,

Tom

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 10:07 AM, Francois Gouget  wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Sep 2009, Tom Wickline wrote:
> [...]
> > But the problem is if say I donate $50.00 who's to say the bug I
> > donate to will be resolved any time soon? Paypal only allows refunds
> > up to 60 days, so how would you go about a refund if the bug wasn't
> > fixed in say a year or more?
>
> The solution to this problem is 'pledges'. So when the bug is closed,
> those who pledged to give money are notified and can then decide for
> themselves whether to send the money or not.
>
> Sure it means they may go back on their word, from some outsider's point
> of view, but at least they cannot complain, and Wine not getting the
> money would pretty much be business as usual anyway (unless reneged
> pledges detract from regular WPF donations).
>
> --
> Francois Gouget               http://fgouget.free.fr/
>            "Lotto: A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
>          "Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U

[Ben Klein]

2009/9/22 Tom Wickline :
> What about a hybrid Donate/Pledge box? I'm aware there is a Donate section
> on the main site. But could this somehow be Incorporated into the rest of
> the site?
> Bugs and Apps DB or would it just be tacky :)

The real issue is that anything that *looks* (to a normal user) like
"give money and get your bug fixed" is not going to be good for the
Wine project. That includes pledges. If money is given or pledged for
a bug that remains unfixed for x amount of time, users will get
stroppy and in the worst cases abandon the Wine project. This is the
most likely outcome of per-bug donations and pledges.

Regardless, pledges simply don't solve the administration issue of who
gets the money. Developers working on bugs with pledges would no doubt
feel entitled to it. THIS is where the admin nightmare resides.

[Francois Gouget]

On Tue, 22 Sep 2009, Ben Klein wrote:
[...]
> The real issue is that anything that *looks* (to a normal user) like 
> "give money and get your bug fixed" is not going to be good for the 
> Wine project. That includes pledges.

That's just your opinion (both that pledges == donations and that they 
won't be good for Wine).
> Regardless, pledges simply don't solve the administration issue of who
> gets the money. Developers working on bugs with pledges would no doubt
> feel entitled to it. THIS is where the admin nightmare resides.

I think a previous email had a very simple solution to that: the WPF 
gets the money, nobody else.

Sure that means we won't get 'bounty hunters', but for most bugs the 
pledges would have to reach into the thousands of dollars for them to 
make sense from a purely economic point of view (both due to 
administrative overhead and due to time it takes to fix them).

That said I really don't care much because the Wine project would not 
know what to do with the money anyway. It's not that sponsoring 
developers to go to the Wine conference is not good but it does not 
scale.

So if we raised 10000$ in a year, how would we use them to move Wine 
forward?

Hire contractors to work on specific issues? What contractors? Get a 
part-time Wine developper to work full-time on Wine for a while? What 
would he do after the money runs out?

Hardware purchases? What kind and for what? Maybe for the patchwatcher? 
Maybe hire someone to administrate the patchwatcher machines part-time?

Marketing? Where? How? Would it really be beneficial? Wouldn't 10000$ be 
too little?

Well, maybe someone will have a bright idea?

[Austin English]

On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Francois Gouget  wrote:
> That said I really don't care much because the Wine project would not
> know what to do with the money anyway. It's not that sponsoring
> developers to go to the Wine conference is not good but it does not
> scale.
>
> So if we raised 10000$ in a year, how would we use them to move Wine
> forward?
>
> Hire contractors to work on specific issues? What contractors? Get a
> part-time Wine developper to work full-time on Wine for a while? What
> would he do after the money runs out?
>
> Hardware purchases? What kind and for what? Maybe for the patchwatcher?
> Maybe hire someone to administrate the patchwatcher machines part-time?
>
> Marketing? Where? How? Would it really be beneficial? Wouldn't 10000$ be
> too little?
>
> Well, maybe someone will have a bright idea?

Getting the money is usually the hard part. Once there is money,
usually ideas start flowing much easier ;-).

That said, the favorite idea I've heard was sponsoring our own summer
(winter/whenever) of code's. Patchwatcher also seems like a good idea,
if someone is available/interested. Extending Appinstall more may also
be good <g>...

[Ben Klein]

2009/9/24 Francois Gouget :
> On Tue, 22 Sep 2009, Ben Klein wrote:
> [...]
> > The real issue is that anything that *looks* (to a normal user) like
> > "give money and get your bug fixed" is not going to be good for the
> > Wine project. That includes pledges.
>
> That's just your opinion (both that pledges == donations and that they
> won't be good for Wine).

"I pledged $200 to get the DIB Engine fixed two weeks ago an it still
hasn't been done. What's going on?"

"It's now been two MONTHS since I pledged $200 on the DIB Engine and
it's still not fixed. Wine is so disorganised. There's real money here
and you don't want it. I'm glad I never paid it."

"Six months, no progress on DIB Engine. Never using Wine again. Get
your act together!"

^^ This will happen more than bugs with donations/pledges getting
fixed faster than other bugs.

And if WPF gets the money anyway and no one else, what point is there
attaching the donations to a particular bug?

[Francois Gouget]

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009, Ben Klein wrote:
[...]
> "I pledged $200 to get the DIB Engine fixed two weeks ago an it still
> hasn't been done. What's going on?"

That's just an argument for closing Bugzilla. Otherwise you're going to 
offend all those who took the time to enter a bug (time=money) whose bug 
was not fixed within 48 hours, and who would then leave the project 
which would be bad for Wine.
> And if WPF gets the money anyway and no one else, what point is there
> attaching the donations to a particular bug?

Saying you'll only give the money to the project if the bug is fixed. 
What else!

You seem to think the only point of pledging money on bugs is to 
motivate someone to fix them for economic gain. But as I said most of 
the time it does not make sense from an economic point of view. I see 
them more as a way to communicate to the project about the relative 
importance of bugs.