This is based upon the Wine 0.8 TODO v0.2 send earlier to the list.
It is important to get a comprehensive list of what needs to be done, in order to have a successful 0.9 release. This includes all things Wine-related, not only the code.
I can not do it alone -- I need your input.
Before I start, a quick reminder for the 0.9 criteria: -- Users can start using Wine -- works well for a fair number of apps -- no MS DLLs required (from real Windows) -- User facing stuff (website, docs, etc.) are in a decent state, to avoid scaring them away What is NOT in 0.9: -- stable server protocol (no binary compatibility) -- DLL separation (phase 2)
Please review it, and let me know if: - I've left something out - Something is in, and it doesn't belong in here (for 0.9 that is) - I have put your name on a task you are not working on - I have NOT put your name on a task you are working on - You have a status update (if you're working on something) - You want to start working on some of these.
Comments, flames, suggestions, are appreciated, as always.
A. WineHQ work (Beta at: http://lostwages.winehq.org) 0. Website redesign [IN PROGRESS] - worker: Jeremy Newman jnewman@codeweavers.com 1. Reorganize the navigational menu [BETA] - wine-devel consensus merged into new site 2. Create some really sexy screenshots [IN PROGRESS] -- one app per screenshot, avoid cluttered desktop -- minimize size, if possible by using 'Positioned Color Dithering' 3. Rework the FAQ interface [IN PROGRESS] - workers: Dimitrie Paun, Keith Matthews, Thomas Wickline) 4. Enlist some 'official' distribution maintainers [TODO] (at the minimum RedHat, SUSE, Mandrake, Debian) 5. Create nice page with apps that run virtually flawless [IN PROGRESS] They should not require MS dlls, tricks, etc. to run - worker: Carlos clozano@andago.com
B. Documentation work 0. We need to first figure _what_ is out of date. [TODO] 1. Convert man pages to SGML [TODO] 2. Move CVS docu from User Guide to Devel Guide [TODO]
C. Wine configuration 0. Merge configuration into the registry [TODO] 1. Write control panel applets for editing it [TODO] 2. Have decent defaults so we can start control panel without prior configuration [TODO] 3. Have wizard like app to autoconfigure wine [TODO] WineSetupTk proposed by Jeremy White jwhite@codeweavers.com 4. Make Wine's DLLs register themselves to avoid manual merging of the winedefault.reg [TODO] 5. Write .inf script to setup a new Wine installation [TODO] 6. Have a wineboot script for RunOnce stuff [IN PROGRESS] - worker: Shachar Shemesh wine-devel@sun.consumer.org.il
D. Stabilize utilities 0. Get rid of the init directive from .spec files [DONE] - worker: Alexandre Julliard julliard@winehq.com 1. Make sure the .spec file format is fairly stable [TODO] Any other things that may need changing here? 2. Ensure the various utilities' options are stable [IN PROGRESS] - Alexandre fixed winebuild options Anything here?
E. Important fixes 0. Window management rewrite, so we can install apps in managed mode. - worker: Alexandre Julliard julliard@winehq.com 1. Finish DLL separation Phase 1 [IN PROGRESS] That is, DLLs should use only functions exported through .spec file. Phase 2 is getting rid of unwanted functions from .spec file, and this is not a target for 0.9.
--- "Dimitrie O. Paun" dpaun@rogers.com wrote: [-snip-]
- Create nice page with apps that run virtually flawless [IN PROGRESS] They should not require MS dlls, tricks, etc. to run
- worker: Carlos clozano@andago.com
Add me on here, I will do some app testing from various sites...
B. Documentation work 0. We need to first figure _what_ is out of date. [TODO]
I can help here too, maybe not as much as app testing but still some.. [-snip-]
-Dustin
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El mié, 06 de nov de 2002, a las 13:16, Dustin Navea escribio:
--- "Dimitrie O. Paun" dpaun@rogers.com wrote: [-snip-]
- Create nice page with apps that run virtually flawless [IN PROGRESS] They should not require MS dlls, tricks, etc. to run
- worker: Carlos clozano@andago.com
Add me on here, I will do some app testing from various sites...
:)))
I don't think that we should start with a list of applications too big. Maybe 20 or 30, getting a average of flawless/popular applications.
Now the question is: a) One page for all the applications.
b) A index page with a table:
------------------------------------------------------------ | Name | Version | Status | ------------------------------------------------------------ | Internet Explorer | 5.5 | XXX-- | ------------------------------------------------------------ .... and a page for every application.
c) Several pages by themes. ...
Every application should include at least the next info:
o Name. o Version. o Description. o Screenshot. o Download URL (when it is possible) o Wine's Version. o Status. o Problems. o Mantainer's name and email.
Regards, Carlos.
Excuse me if I feel scared, but is this Appdb or something else ??
Now the question is: a) One page for all the applications.
b) A index page with a table:
| Name | Version | Status |
| Internet Explorer | 5.5 | XXX-- |
.... and a page for every application.
c) Several pages by themes. ...
Every application should include at least the next info:
o Name. o Version. o Description. o Screenshot. o Download URL (when it is possible) o Wine's Version. o Status. o Problems. o Mantainer's name and email.
Regards, Carlos.
-- ___ _ \ | / Infraestructuras | . |._ _ _| | ___ ___ ___ http://www.andago.com | || ' |/ . |<_> |/ . |/ . __ GNU/Linux |_|_||_|_|___|<___|_. |___/ _ \ __|\ \ / Carlos A. Lozano <___'/ | \ -_) __/__ \ > < -_) [ carlos.lozano@andago.com ]___|_| ____/ _/____| [ calb@epsxe.com ] http://www.epsxe.com
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El jue, 07 de nov de 2002, a las 00:48, Sylvain Petreolle escribio:
Excuse me if I feel scared, but is this Appdb or something else ??
Now the question is: a) One page for all the applications.
b) A index page with a table:
| Name | Version | Status |
| Internet Explorer | 5.5 | XXX-- |
.... and a page for every application.
c) Several pages by themes. ...
Every application should include at least the next info:
[...]
o Mantainer's name and email.
Excuse me if I feel scared, but is this Appdb or something else ??
No. It should be a group of applications tested by wine developers (or application mantainers) and what should work more or less flawless (without native dlls). It should be the screenshot section.
Regards, Carlos.
Excuse me if I feel scared, but is this Appdb or something else ??
No. It should be a group of applications tested by wine developers (or application mantainers) and what should work more or less flawless (without native dlls). It should be the screenshot section.
In this case Appdb is already there, and only needs a maintainer. No need to duplicate work.
If you disagree, listen to what you wrote and compare it with Appdb contents...
b) A index page with a table:
| Name | Version | Status |
| Internet Explorer | 5.5 | XXX-- |
....
and a page for every application.
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--- Sylvain Petreolle spetreolle@yahoo.fr wrote:
Excuse me if I feel scared, but is this Appdb or something else ??
No. It should be a group of applications tested by wine developers (or application mantainers) and what should work more or less flawless (without native dlls). It should be the screenshot section.
In this case Appdb is already there, and only needs a maintainer. No need to duplicate work.
If you disagree, listen to what you wrote and compare it with Appdb contents...
b) A index page with a table:
| Name | Version | Status |
| Internet Explorer | 5.5 | XXX-- |
....
and a page for every application.
Problem with using the AppDB is that it is highly disorganized, and most of the apps are non-working in there, his suggestion his that we only list 'officially' tested and working apps on this/these page(s) AFAICS..
-Dustin
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On Thu, 2002-11-07 at 11:19, Dustin Navea wrote:
--- Sylvain Petreolle spetreolle@yahoo.fr wrote:
Excuse me if I feel scared, but is this Appdb or something else ??
No. It should be a group of applications tested by wine developers (or application mantainers) and what should work more or less flawless (without native dlls). It should be the screenshot section.
In this case Appdb is already there, and only needs a maintainer. No need to duplicate work.
If you disagree, listen to what you wrote and compare it with Appdb contents...
b) A index page with a table:
| Name | Version | Status |
| Internet Explorer | 5.5 | XXX-- |
....
and a page for every application.
Problem with using the AppDB is that it is highly disorganized, and most of the apps are non-working in there, his suggestion his that we only list 'officially' tested and working apps on this/these page(s) AFAICS..
Maybe you could add a "Wine tested/Approved" Stamp or something similiar to AppDB (Approved image displays if column 'Approved' = 'Y'), then display all and sort by that column.
No duplication.
Rick
--- Rick Romero rick@valeoinc.com wrote:
On Thu, 2002-11-07 at 11:19, Dustin Navea wrote:
--- Sylvain Petreolle spetreolle@yahoo.fr wrote:
Excuse me if I feel scared, but is this Appdb or something else ??
No. It should be a group of applications tested by wine developers (or application mantainers) and what should work more or less flawless (without native dlls). It should be the screenshot section.
In this case Appdb is already there, and only needs a maintainer. No need to duplicate work.
If you disagree, listen to what you wrote and compare it with Appdb contents...
b) A index page with a table:
| Name | Version | Status |
| Internet Explorer | 5.5 | XXX-- |
....
and a page for every application.
Problem with using the AppDB is that it is highly disorganized, and most
of
the apps are non-working in there, his suggestion his that we only list 'officially' tested and working apps on this/these page(s) AFAICS..
Maybe you could add a "Wine tested/Approved" Stamp or something similiar to AppDB (Approved image displays if column 'Approved' = 'Y'), then display all and sort by that column.
No duplication.
Not a bad idea, but the other thing is that users are going to want to be able to look at one page that lists all of the working apps and if they want more info they can click the link. At the top (or bottom) we could have a link that references the AppDB, something like:
Don't see your App listed here? Check the AppDB to see the status of it and what you can do to help get it working. http://appdb.winehq.com
Should suffice.
-Dustin
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Random idea: might it be worth creating a "Works With Wine" button, similar to the old web-browser buttons, these images could link back to the page on winehq with a description and screenshot (or maybe the appdb) and be sent off to the app maintainers. Obviously some (Microsoft :) aren't going to put the button up anytime soon, but others such as WinRAR etc may well do - it can't hurt to try and could be a good way of getting some free advertising to Windows users who may have never even heard of Linux before.
I'm quite happy to try and knock up a design for this button and go ask the developers for software we consider "Gold" to put it somewhere on their site. So far most non-huge windows developers I've spoken to have been pretty happy that their app works in Wine, so I don't think they'd mind.
Comments? thanks -mike
On Thu, 2002-11-07 at 17:55, Dustin Navea wrote:
--- Rick Romero rick@valeoinc.com wrote:
On Thu, 2002-11-07 at 11:19, Dustin Navea wrote:
--- Sylvain Petreolle spetreolle@yahoo.fr wrote:
Excuse me if I feel scared, but is this Appdb or something else ??
No. It should be a group of applications tested by wine developers (or application mantainers) and what should work more or less flawless (without native dlls). It should be the screenshot section.
In this case Appdb is already there, and only needs a maintainer. No need to duplicate work.
If you disagree, listen to what you wrote and compare it with Appdb contents...
b) A index page with a table:
| Name | Version | Status |
| Internet Explorer | 5.5 | XXX-- |
....
and a page for every application.
Problem with using the AppDB is that it is highly disorganized, and most
of
the apps are non-working in there, his suggestion his that we only list 'officially' tested and working apps on this/these page(s) AFAICS..
Maybe you could add a "Wine tested/Approved" Stamp or something similiar to AppDB (Approved image displays if column 'Approved' = 'Y'), then display all and sort by that column.
No duplication.
Not a bad idea, but the other thing is that users are going to want to be able to look at one page that lists all of the working apps and if they want more info they can click the link. At the top (or bottom) we could have a link that references the AppDB, something like:
Don't see your App listed here? Check the AppDB to see the status of it and what you can do to help get it working. http://appdb.winehq.com
Should suffice.
-Dustin
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On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 08:50:49AM +0000, Mike Hearn wrote:
Random idea: might it be worth creating a "Works With Wine" button, similar to the old web-browser buttons, these images could link back to the page on winehq with a description and screenshot (or maybe the appdb) and be sent off to the app maintainers. Obviously some (Microsoft :) aren't going to put the button up anytime soon, but others such as WinRAR etc may well do - it can't hurt to try and could be a good way of getting some free advertising to Windows users who may have never even heard of Linux before.
I'm quite happy to try and knock up a design for this button and go ask the developers for software we consider "Gold" to put it somewhere on their site. So far most non-huge windows developers I've spoken to have been pretty happy that their app works in Wine, so I don't think they'd mind.
Comments?
Great idea, IMHO.
We might want to make sure there is no conflict whatsoever between a certain point in time where it happens to work with Wine and a certain point in time when *Wine* is considered "Gold" and thus the app is *supposed* to work at that time, though.
But OTOH that "certification" would probably simply translate into a web page where you can view which Wine version *exactly* with which Wine settings *exactly* has been made to work, so there wouldn't be a conflict.
Great idea, IMHO.
We might want to make sure there is no conflict whatsoever between a certain point in time where it happens to work with Wine and a certain point in time when *Wine* is considered "Gold" and thus the app is *supposed* to work at that time, though.
Presumably once an app starts working with Wine, if it suddenly stops for whatever reason (ignoring changes in the app itself) then it's a regression in Wine, which should be pretty rare.
As such once an app is "known good" it could receive this certification and if somebody tries the app and it's found to not work, then a bug should be filed in bugzilla. I'd suggest (I don't know current policy) that bugs on apps that did work but now don't should be treated seriously as regressions unless it's a known architectural issue (like a new control is being tested or something).
OK, I'll try and make a button for this in the GIMP, so people can applaud/flame etc on it. If people seem to think it's a good idea I don't mind emailing people/organizations about it. When will the list of top 10 gold apps be ready?
thanks -mike
On November 8, 2002 07:26 am, Mike Hearn wrote:
Presumably once an app starts working with Wine, if it suddenly stops for whatever reason (ignoring changes in the app itself) then it's a regression in Wine, which should be pretty rare.
:))) We wish!
When will the list of top 10 gold apps be ready?
Real Soon Now (TM). We're on it.
Problem with using the AppDB is that it is highly disorganized, and
most of
the apps are non-working in there, his suggestion his that we only
list
'officially' tested and working apps on this/these page(s) AFAICS..
Maybe you could add a "Wine tested/Approved" Stamp or something similiar to AppDB (Approved image displays if column 'Approved' = 'Y'), then display all and sort by that column.
No duplication.
Agreed. And after some time we could display this page by default.
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On November 7, 2002 01:06 pm, Sylvain Petreolle wrote:
No duplication.
Agreed. And after some time we could display this page by default.
There is no duplication. The AppDB, and this list server different purposes, as I explained before. Let's not mix the two, if not necessary.
On Thu, 2002-11-07 at 12:16, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote:
On November 7, 2002 01:06 pm, Sylvain Petreolle wrote:
No duplication.
Agreed. And after some time we could display this page by default.
There is no duplication. The AppDB, and this list server different purposes, as I explained before. Let's not mix the two, if not necessary.
But if App X is listed in AppDB, and on 'the list', wouldn't it be duplicated? Why wouldn't you want to use the same (MySQL/Postgres/Yourfav) table?
I'm assuming the visual layout would be different than AppDB, but I don't understand why the data would change. I would think you would also want to differentiate 'officially' tested apps from user submitted apps within the AppDB also..
Rick
On November 7, 2002 01:42 pm, Rick Romero wrote:
But if App X is listed in AppDB, and on 'the list', wouldn't it be duplicated? Why wouldn't you want to use the same (MySQL/Postgres/Yourfav) table?
I DO NOT want that page be automatically generated, because: -- want want to be able to _hand_pick_ apps -- I don't want it to grow too large -- I want to be able to maintain consistency of information accoss apps -- I want it to have a hand-tuned, nice look
And *were*, pray tell, is the duplication? The fact that we list the name of an app in a page, that might be in the AppDB does not qualify as duplication. Please read my other posts on the subject, describing what I think should be on the page.
El jue, 07 de nov de 2002, a las 18:09, Sylvain Petreolle escribio:
Excuse me if I feel scared, but is this Appdb or something else ??
No. It should be a group of applications tested by wine developers (or application mantainers) and what should work more or less flawless (without native dlls). It should be the screenshot section.
In this case Appdb is already there, and only needs a maintainer. No need to duplicate work.
If you disagree, listen to what you wrote and compare it with Appdb contents...
I have a different vision of Appdb actually, it is more a forum what a real compatibility list. If you see entries like IE5.5 it will be even funny:
<guy a> I run ie5.5 in my machine. <guy b> It doesn't work for me in Redhat 7.2 <guy c> You suck, mozilla is better than ie5.5 <guy d> ie5.5 is better because ....
In Appdb is mixed different versions of wine (the difficult is find 2 entries for one same application with the same version ;), and it includes info about native DLLs.
This page should be a, hmmm ..., "marketing" page, it should show to the users that wine works (yeah for some apps only), without tricks or native dlls.
It should include a list of 20/30 applications what the user only need download/install wine, download the application setup, install and cool!!!! it works :)
It should be prepared by release date, and it shouldn't be modify, except that wine develop will get separated in 2 tree, stable/unstable, then it should be checked for every stable version.
Really the binary version what was used to check this applications should be in download section.
I don't think that the list should increase in number anytime. If wine should run every day better applications, this applications should replace to some simple from the original list.
Regards, Carlos.
On November 6, 2002 05:41 pm, Carlos Lozano wrote:
Now the question is: a) One page for all the applications.
Yes. This has to be _one_ page, that user can just look at, and get their appetites wet :)
[...]
Every application should include at least the next info:
o Name. o Version. o Description. o Screenshot.
small thumbnail that links to a screenshot, yes.
o Download URL (when it is possible)
Yes. We should favour freeware apps, so that users can actually download, and try them out right away, without silly registrations, etc.
The entire thing should fit in one line, like so:
WinRAR 3.0 A nice archiving utility [screenshot thumbnail]
o Wine's Version.
No need, this is supposed to be the Gold list of supported apps.
o Status.
Ditto. Status is *****, it's implied in the "Gold" status.
o Problems.
None. See above :)
o Mantainer's name and email.
This belongs in the AppDB.
Remember, this page should be simple, and hold only the interesting bits, none of this 'boring' stuff. :)
[...]
o Download URL (when it is possible)
Yes. We should favour freeware apps, so that users can actually download, and try them out right away, without silly registrations, etc.
The entire thing should fit in one line, like so:
WinRAR 3.0 A nice archiving utility [screenshot thumbnail]
Looks like fine for me :)
o Wine's Version.
No need, this is supposed to be the Gold list of supported apps.
I have thought that it shouldn't be necessary. It should be better if the list is updated with the last stable release.
o Status.
Ditto. Status is *****, it's implied in the "Gold" status.
o Problems.
None. See above :)
hmm, good, some applications could be very usable even if some feature is buggy, it is complex test applications with more of 15-20 different options, and if the bugs are known it could be listed in a different page (for example together to the full screenshot)
Regards, Carlos.
On November 7, 2002 05:11 pm, Carlos Lozano wrote:
hmm, good, some applications could be very usable even if some feature is buggy, it is complex test applications with more of 15-20 different options, and if the bugs are known it could be listed in a different page (for example together to the full screenshot)
Indeed, we can have a small, unintrusive [Notes] link, over to the right, where we can add a small blurb about potential problems, etc.
Agreed, should be cool !
Indeed, we can have a small, unintrusive [Notes] link, over to the right, where we can add a small blurb about potential problems, etc.
-- Dimi.
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Dimitrie O. Paun wrote:
This is based upon the Wine 0.8 TODO v0.2 send earlier to the list.
It is important to get a comprehensive list of what needs to be done, in order to have a successful 0.9 release. This includes all things Wine-related, not only the code.
A suggestion... As far as I know (I could be wrong about this) Wine currently has to be compiled for the CUPS/non-CUPS printing system that the user has. It would be nice if Wine could figure this out at runtime and configure itself then. At least for the non-gamers out there, printing support is fairly important.
On Wed, Nov 06, 2002 at 01:25:25PM -0800, Duane Clark wrote:
Dimitrie O. Paun wrote:
This is based upon the Wine 0.8 TODO v0.2 send earlier to the list.
It is important to get a comprehensive list of what needs to be done, in order to have a successful 0.9 release. This includes all things Wine-related, not only the code.
A suggestion... As far as I know (I could be wrong about this) Wine currently has to be compiled for the CUPS/non-CUPS printing system that the user has. It would be nice if Wine could figure this out at runtime and configure itself then. At least for the non-gamers out there, printing support is fairly important.
Yup, I'm going to do this in the near future.
Also it would be nice if opengl could similarly be loaded on the fly.
Huw.
Also it would be nice if opengl could similarly be loaded on the fly.
I will put this on my todo list.... Will try to do it the same moment I want to try to properly separate the DLL (and at the same time fix the NWN tools problems).
No date promised, though :-)
Lionel
Also it would be nice if opengl could similarly be loaded on the fly.
I am working on this right now... It's relatively easy for the OpenGL parts of the X11DRV (I will do as XRender), but I have two other problems :
1) what about opengl32.dll.so itself ? In that case, can I let direct OpenGL calls in there ? Thus if an application ever tries to load opengl32.dll on a non-libGL.so enabled system, the Wine library load will just fail due to a link failure and Wine will try to load the native (if any) OpenGL32.DLL.
This is much more easy than doing a complete 'dlsym'ing of all the various OpenGL calls that are thunked (although it could be done as I would have just to rework my thunk-generator Perl script)
But well, considering that the result will be anyway 'DLL cannot be loaded', I think that the 'ugly' solution is enough.
Comments :-) ?
2) the other bigger problem is the current DDraw code. There are a whole lot of OpenGL code directly called into it. This means that this Wine package won't have DDraw work on a non-libGL.so enabled box (even if the game is only a 2D game).
I am somehow reluctant to fix this as the Direct3D code is bound to have some rework soon (at least I hope :-) ) and I do not want to have thinks conflict uselessly or do a hacky solution now to replace it by something nicer later. One solution would be to completely remove the D3D code behind compilation flags (as it's non-functionnal anyway) and people wanting to play with it could always set them to 'ON' somewhere in a .h file.
For stuff like D3D8, it's the same as for OpenGL32.DLL as without libGL.so we will never support it anyway.
Lionel
-
Andreas Mohr -
Carlos Lozano -
Dimitrie O. Paun -
Duane Clark -
Dustin Navea -
Huw Davies -
Lionel Ulmer -
Mike Hearn -
Rick Romero -
Sylvain Petreolle