"Dimitrie O. Paun" dpaun@rogers.com writes:
The semantics associated in Unix with files starting with a . is that they are hidden, *exactly* like the hidden DOS files. We should mark them as such.
We're lucky in that the DOS world does not use files that only have extension, so we have no semantical conflict.
I don't think I agree with that. Maybe in the days of 8.3 files yes, but nowadays Windows apps can create files starting with a dot, and they don't expect these files to be hidden. Also hidden files are much harder to access under Windows than dot files under Unix, so I'm not sure it would really be better for the user.
On September 13, 2002 05:38 pm, Alexandre Julliard wrote:
I don't think I agree with that. Maybe in the days of 8.3 files yes, but nowadays Windows apps can create files starting with a dot, and they don't expect these files to be hidden.
Yes, they can create, but they rarely, if ever, do so.
Also hidden files are much harder to access under Windows than dot files under Unix, so I'm not sure it would really be better for the user.
But we're putting the carriage before the horse here. Indeed, we have a potential problem of Windows app creating hidden files. In real life, I've never seen it happen, simply because the users are not used to that sort of thing.
On the other hand, we have a real problem: we run Wine on Unix, and in this environment, people *expect* to not see dot-files all over the place. Programs expect that too, so everybody and their brother create dot files and directories like there's no tomorrow. So when you use Wine in this environment, it seems strange, alien, and quite aggravating.
So we have a problem. I, as a _user_, sure want the ability to turn the dot files into hidden files. Current behaviour bothers me to no end, and I'll bet you a dollar in small change I'm not alone. So maybe you want to make this configurable, but who is gonna turn it off?
Non expert users never mess with dot files. Expert users can use a native editor to do so. Let's not sacrifice a feature that will benefit 99% of the users, for the 1% of them that are gonna use it _maybe_ 1% of the time.
"Dimitrie O. Paun" dpaun@rogers.com writes:
So we have a problem. I, as a _user_, sure want the ability to turn the dot files into hidden files. Current behaviour bothers me to no end, and I'll bet you a dollar in small change I'm not alone. So maybe you want to make this configurable, but who is gonna turn it off?
I'm not questioning the need to have a way of not seeing these files in open dialogs, but I'm not convinced that using the hidden attribute at the lowest filesystem level is the right way to achieve that. But yes, if we do it that way it definitely needs to be configurable.
On September 13, 2002 06:25 pm, Alexandre Julliard wrote:
I'm not questioning the need to have a way of not seeing these files in open dialogs, but I'm not convinced that using the hidden attribute at the lowest filesystem level is the right way to achieve that. But yes, if we do it that way it definitely needs to be configurable.
Should I send a patch. Again, let's see if people complain. But I'd be _very_ curious to see a case where this is a problem...
"Dimitrie O. Paun" dpaun@rogers.com writes:
Should I send a patch. Again, let's see if people complain. But I'd be _very_ curious to see a case where this is a problem...
If you make it configurable (and fix the handling of '.' and '..') it might be possible to convince me to include it <g>
On September 13, 2002 09:32 pm, Alexandre Julliard wrote:
If you make it configurable (and fix the handling of '.' and '..') it might be possible to convince me to include it <g>
Wink, wink, nudge, nudge... ;)
On Fri, 13 Sep 2002, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote: [...]
Also hidden files are much harder to access under Windows than dot files under Unix, so I'm not sure it would really be better for the user.
[...]
So we have a problem. I, as a _user_, sure want the ability to turn the dot files into hidden files. Current behaviour bothers me to no end, and I'll bet you a dollar in small change I'm not alone. So maybe you want to make this configurable, but who is gonna turn it off?
[...]
What you want is not so much to have files starting with a '.' to have the hidden DOS file attribute set, but not to see them in open dialogs.
Currently the same dialogs are hiding file extensions and this is bothering me to no end too. In that case what needs fixing is the open dialog. Maybe it is the same for files starting with a '.'?
I'm assuming this is all done using common dialogs so then what we need is: * a flag to tell the common dialog to not hide file extensions * another flag to tell it to hide file extensions
And ideally these flags should be settable from the 'open' dialog itself (extra button, item in the right-click menu on the file list) because we don't really have an ubiquitous 'Explorer' (ok we have winefile but is it ever used?).
Does the above make sense?
-- Francois Gouget fgouget@free.fr http://fgouget.free.fr/ Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he'll be a mile away - and barefoot.
On September 13, 2002 08:12 pm, Francois Gouget wrote:
What you want is not so much to have files starting with a '.' to have the hidden DOS file attribute set, but not to see them in open dialogs.
Of course I though about this, but it's not gonna cut it. There are bunch of programs (FTP programs, etc.) which display directories in some way. Doing it at the common dialog level is too high.
People, Windows is by excellence an interactive platform. This means that it places above everything else the user experience. And users have come to expect that. Wine users are mostly (ex-)Windows users, so we have to cater to that audience. And handicapping the user eperience for some remotely possible theoretical case is not gonna go too well.
But going back to the problem at hand: -- Unix users do not expect dot files to show in any listing, unless they explicitely ask for it. They must be hidden. -- Windows users do not expect to see their home directory misteriously cluttered by hundreds of files that otherwise don't show up anywere (first reaction: where _is_ my home directory?) -- Windows users do not use dot files. I have never see a Windows person use or create a dot file. -- Unix users rarely open dot files. Those how do are most likely experts. -- we need to present the user a consistent interface.
So it seems to me the solution is the other way around: -- mark dot-files as FA_HIDDEN -- add a global option to turn this behaviour off (however, I would do this on demand, if there is even one person how would need it) -- add a toggle in the common dialog to _show_ hidden files
So, what can happen badly if we have this behaviour? At worse, you'd have to type in the desired file name to access it, if it does not show (and you don't have access to the "show hidden files" flag.
And to end this with a bang, here's the definition of a hidden file, from the "Int 21h Function 6Ch (FAT32)" found on MSDN:
FILE_ATTRIBUTE_HIDDEN (0002h) The file is hidden and does not appear in an ordinary directory listing.
Which is *exactly* the Unix semantics of dot-files.
But going back to the problem at hand:
what about .wine/config ? ;)
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On Fri, 13 Sep 2002, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote:
On September 13, 2002 08:12 pm, Francois Gouget wrote:
What you want is not so much to have files starting with a '.' to have the hidden DOS file attribute set, but not to see them in open dialogs.
Of course I though about this, but it's not gonna cut it. There are bunch of programs (FTP programs, etc.) which display directories in some way. Doing it at the common dialog level is too high.
Note that on Windows the common dialog 'Open dialogs' show hidden files. More precisely that's how I have them configured on my system. I don't know what Wine does in this regard, but if it currently really hides hidden file, then that would be another option to add.
-- Francois Gouget fgouget@free.fr http://fgouget.free.fr/ It really galls me that most of the computer power in the world is wasted on screen savers. Chris Caldwell from the GIMPS project http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm
Francois Gouget wrote:
Note that on Windows the common dialog 'Open dialogs' show hidden files. More precisely that's how I have them configured on my system. I don't know what Wine does in this regard, but if it currently really hides hidden file, then that would be another option to add.
This is not quite true. You asked explorer to display hidden files, and as a result the file dialog shows them as well. I don't think there is a good way of mimicking that with the exception of a global configuration (as suggested).
--
make your signature start with dash dash space instead of dash dash, and mail clients will actually know it is a signature.
Francois Gouget fgouget@free.fr http://fgouget.free.fr/ It really galls me that most of the computer power in the world is wasted on screen savers. Chris Caldwell from the GIMPS project http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm
On Sat, 14 Sep 2002, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
Francois Gouget wrote:
Note that on Windows the common dialog 'Open dialogs' show hidden files. More precisely that's how I have them configured on my system. I don't know what Wine does in this regard, but if it currently really hides hidden file, then that would be another option to add.
This is not quite true. You asked explorer to display hidden files, and as a result the file dialog shows them as well.
Yes, you configure this via Explorer. I assume it sets a registry key which is then used by the "open dialog" in common dialogs. We need to use the same registry key, and then to put the cherry on top of the cake we should provide a way for the user to change it's value (something better than regapi xxx). That's more or less what I proposed in a previous email (though it was about another flag).
--
make your signature start with dash dash space instead of dash dash, and mail clients will actually know it is a signature.
Sorry, I thought there was a space there already. In any case it should be there now.
Francois Gouget wrote:
Yes, you configure this via Explorer. I assume it sets a registry key which is then used by the "open dialog" in common dialogs. We need to use the same registry key, and then to put the cherry on top of the cake we should provide a way for the user to change it's value (something better than regapi xxx). That's more or less what I proposed in a previous email (though it was about another flag).
Modifying this attribute changed a value on my Windows 2000. Under HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced. Hidden(dword) was 1 for "show", and 2 for "hide".
There were a bunch of values on the same key that were affected by all the other settings (file extensions, protected), but this seems to be the key your'e after.
Shachar
-
Alexandre Julliard -
Dimitrie O. Paun -
Francois Gouget -
Shachar Shemesh -
Sylvain Petreolle