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84488 discussions

Re: Copyright, derivative works, and truly free licensing (Was:
by Rolf Kalbermatter 13 Feb '02

13 Feb '02

Brett Glass <brett(a)lariat.org> wrote: >I agree wholeheartedly that such discussion shouldn't be a constant distraction >or devolve into a "flame war." I have taken great pains to express my point >of view very carefully and to make sure that nothing I've posted could be >construed as "flamage." Well, I for myself can only say that you have certainly failed in this. For me, your posts had from the first beginning the character of somone on a crusade against RMS, the FSF and anything connected with it. Although some of your remarks would have been at least interesting, that fanaticism in wording your opinion about xGPL, making claims about what someone elses intentions "doubtlessly" are, and trying to come up with the worst doom scenarios, made it virtually impossible for me to accept and listen to any of your other more serious statements. The subject of what direction Wine should go, seemed obviosly just the coat hanger on which you continued this, your personal crusade! So as far as I'm concerned you have certainly not reached your goal. I'm certainly not a xGPL fanatic, but it personally feels not right to me that people spend their time on something to work on and any company can come in and take whatever there is and make profit out of it, without contributing something back. And with that I don't mean the questionable marketing hype of letting those people say: "Hey you know, they made their great product out of our project and I'm so proud that I have spent months and months of my own time to allow them to earn big bucks!" And don't say that they earn the money only for the additional value that company has put in. If it wouldn't be for the developer in the project, that company would not have a product at all to sell as you have actually also agreed on. >I agree, as I have said above, that the developers have the right to make >the decision. But because they are doing the entire project for the benefit >of users as well as for themselves, they certainly should care about how >users feel. What's more, if they are seeking bug fixes or help with >development, they certainly should care how potential contributors feel. >Finally, they should care about how advocates of the project feel. While >advocacy does not expand the code base, it does expand the base of users >and testers. Hence, it plays an important role in any collaborative >software project. You should have started the whole discussion more in this style. This would have helped a lot more than trying to bring in your personal feelings about the FSF and xGPL. Even if the FSF is what you say, it does really not help to bring that topic up in such an emotional tone. It only polarizes everyone, and hinders the solution of the original problem, which might cause the person who is responsible to take a decision out of frustration rather than out of great consideration. >I agree. If anyone has considered any of my messages to be a "flame" rather >than rational discussion, I apologize; nothing I've written was meant to be >a "flame." I really do want to be able to continue to work with, advocate, >and (hopefully) contribute to, WINE, and this has been the reason for the >volume of passionate messages I've posted over the past few days. Well I did actually. This is probably my problem, but your apology is accepted anyhow ;-) And now I go back and continue to work on my first of hopefully a series of contributions to Wine! Rolf Kalbermatter

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Re: Licensing response and an idea
by Lean Fuglsang 12 Feb '02

12 Feb '02

Thanks for an enlightening post, Gav. //DISCLAIMER - I AM JUST AN ORDINARY USER - SO DON'T READ IF YOU DON'T FEEL LIKE I am not a developer (yet). But I truly believe in the spirit of OpenSource Free software. I have reported some bug reports, but I would really like to contribute more. When I first heard about a (very) possible licens change to GPL I thought it was a great Idea, because I hate companies who take code and don't contribute back. With the current license this is possible. But I also think it would be a shame for companies with good intentions (as Transgaming) who (maybe:) will contribute all there code back, and make very fast directed code to wine. I would also be very delighted to pay money directly to the wine project because I like it and use it. An important note is that this is what I do with everything that I buy. When I by music, it is because I like it and have heard it and want's to support the artist. Same with movies. I know this is not the way the corporate world works at the moment, but I can pirate music/video/software very easily and therefore they have to trust me to pay for what I want's to pay to. Phew, hope I didn't confuse all of you (like I confused my self:) But the point is, I really like to make contribution to a gratis project if it is GPL'ed or dual licensed (for 'good' corporations). Many of the people I know has the same 'Ideology' as me, and don't pirate things they think aren't sh**t. And after I have changed to linux and opensource, I have actually pirated a lot less, because all stuff are free, and the things that aren't 'stands out', so to speak. Just my .02$ (and maybe more if it goes as I hope:) //lean Ps. Hope I send this mail to the right place

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Direct 3D 8.0 Wrapper for OpenGL Open Sourced
by Damjan Lango 12 Feb '02

12 Feb '02

Hi, Just found this on http://www.osnews.com/: Direct 3D 8.0 Wrapper for OpenGL Open Sourced http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=613 Not sure what is the license, but maybe it could be incorporated to wine as an alternative to the transgaming's version. ciao Damjan

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wine license vote
by Shane Shields 12 Feb '02

12 Feb '02

hello after having contributed a couple patches (more to come im working on getCalenderInfo now) i feel i can say a couple of words. i have been following the current "discussion" on the license change with avid interest (not to mention a few laughs). just to make sure im not speaking out of a red hat (i compiled my own linux) i downloaded a copy of the licenses in question and compared them side by side. as everything that i wanted to ask has been discussed on the list with good points from both sides of the fence im not going to go over old ground. i think that the lgpl license would be a better choice for WINE than the bsd license. i know that some would disagree and some would agree thats the way the cookie crumbles. but i think that the most important thing is for people to make a decision for themselves and not to try to convince people that dont want to be convinced. its a waste of programming time and cpu cycles (sound familier m$). Shane Shields -- To drink the WINE of success you must first seek the sayings of source _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Greetings and a question
by Michael Cardenas 12 Feb '02

12 Feb '02

Hello everyone. My name is Michael Cardenas and I'm working on Wine for Lindows.com. I'd like to start a lot more communication with all of you and I have a couple of questions. I'm working on an app that uses a custom dll which requires msvcp60.dll to be loaded at launch time and won't launch without it. Currently there's no implementation of msvcp60.dll in wine. Is that just because no one has needed it yet? Or has someone looked into this and seen that it's too large to do? Or is it just not needed and there's some substitute dll? Doing some research, I see that on a fresh install of Windows98, the dll is present, so it seems to be a common windows dll. MSDN mentions the dll in this article: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnwxp/html… "A good example of this is the Microsoft Visual C++ Runtime assembly, which includes atl.dll, mfc42.dll, mfc42u.dll, and msvcp60.dll." Also, there's been basically no discussion of this dll on this mailing list. So, to proceed, I'm going to create a stub dll and hope the app will launch and not need many functions from that dll. I'd like to know if there's a good way to make a complete stub for the dll. Right now, I just made a stub dll with one function. Thanks, Michael

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ping
by lawson_whitney＠juno.com 12 Feb '02

12 Feb '02

Good day! Anybody know a current email address for Mike McCormack? Did he ever show up at Codeweavers? Regards, Lawson

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Re: RFC: Re: Problem with COM (fwd)
by Gerard Patel 12 Feb '02

12 Feb '02

At 10:05 PM 2/11/02 -0500, you wrote: <snip> (original poster) >I must use 5726, 5760 and 9600. My app need this to work. On 4800 >and 9600 I got error. <snip> (Lawson) >Now nobody is going to convince me there is any software that will make >a normal 16550a run at 5726 <snip> You still don't have access to the world wide web ? If you have access to Google, search for the following Usenet posting, for example : UnHy6.600095$JT5.16435354(a)news20.bellglobal.com If you can't use Google, you could see that this is a common request under Windows. quite a few programmers need to access devices with non-standard crystals, or even non 8251 chips with specific drivers. In this post, you could see that SetCommState accepts any baud rate up to 9600 bauds, and that over 9600 bauds the idea is that the Windows driver should accept values that are inside a +-1% interval of the 'correct' value (although the poster says that the calculation is bugged and works only for negative differences). The Windows code for the 8251 family is probably always rounding to the next integer value under 9600, and if the wanted rate falls to +-1% of the 'normal' value over 9600. As I understand it, the 1% tolerance is explained because such a small difference don't matter for asynchronous serial communication. Gerard

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Lindows.com and open source
by Michael Robertson 12 Feb '02

12 Feb '02

Claude, >From: Claus Fischer ("claus.fischer(a)clausfischer.com) >If the current license allows Lindows to make proprietary >modifications and not give anything back, it certainly >allows Codeweavers/whoever to make proprietary modifications >and give back under LGPL. > >Those who don't want to even read LGPL code for reasons of >'contamination' just shouldn't read it. You can't read Lindows >code either. > >Why should Codeweavers be morally pressured to contribute under a >steal-me license when steal-it companies don't contribute at all? Just to set the record straight. Lindows.com has had a partner company producing the majority of our WINE code. The vast majority of the code that came from that partnership is in the public tree already. Lindows.com has contributed code to open source projects. We have hired open source companies (spending over 500K) to help us reach our goals with the majority of the code going back to open source. Lindows.com has given financial support to several open source initiatives (such as KDE). Lindows.com has made significant investments in linux companies. All told, we've spent about 2 million in the 5 months that we've been a company. Linux (and all the other pieces) does 95% of what people want to do today, but only has 1% market share. Our belief is that the code is largely not the limiting factor for adoption now. It's all the pieces that go around the code. It's education, it's marketing, it's lobbying, it's business development, etc. These are big tasks which are critical to success, even more so than the code itself (think AOL). I know this won't be a popular thing to stay on a mailing list with "devel" in the title, but it's where we believe linux is and what we believe needs to happen to get to the next level. This doesn't mean the code isn't important, it is but there are other critical elements. We need Lindows.com and 10 more thriving companies to help with the expense of educating, lobbying, marketing, etc. desktop solutions. It's expensive to do those things and a burden that needs to be shared by several companies because the job is so enormous and the competitor so strong. The Linux community, especially the desktop community needs healthy ongoing companies to put in capital, organization, and other support. If we can put a few million more people running Linux on the desktop, then magical things will happen. Drivers for linux will be available, higher quality linux software will emerge, more OEMs will offer linux as an option, devices will have linux interfaces, governments will view linux differently, etc. There are some small, but meaningful for-profit companies out there today in linux (such as codeweavers and transgaming). The more companies in the linux desktop space there are, the more companies that will be able to pay their rates on an ongoing basis and hire them to code great products. There's tremendous opportunity and the more companies out there the better. As for our marketing message, it's designed for my Grandma. Anytime there's a word on the website she doesn't understand she calls me up. Try explaining a recursive acronym to your Grandma. Yikes. Our goal with Lindows.com is to bring Linux to the segment of the world who thinks linux is spelled with a 'y' and is a small bobcat. -- MR Lindows.com michael(a)lindows.com 858-410-5941 Bring choice to computers: Become a Lindows.com Insider http://www.lindows.com/signup

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Keep filling my mailbox please
by Alexandre Julliard 12 Feb '02

12 Feb '02

Folks, First I thank everybody who mailed me in reply to Jeremy's request, I now have a clearer picture of where the community wants to go. However, I still haven't heard from a number of contributors; so if you haven't sent me your opinion yet, please do it now, so that we can reach a conclusion soon and hopefully return wine-devel to its original purpose. As a reminder, the question Jeremy asked is the following: > Should the Wine project switch to a license which has as > its goal to attempt to secure some form of Copyleft > protection for Wine while still permitting proprietary > software to link and bind with Wine? Just let me know privately whether you agree with that or not. If you don't care either way, or aren't decided yet, please tell me that too, I want to make sure I know where everybody stands on this issue. Thanks. Note: everybody is welcome to send me their opinion, even people who didn't contribute code. Of course the opinion of people who have contributed will carry more weight in the final decision, but I think everybody should have a voice. -- Alexandre Julliard julliard(a)winehq.com

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RE: Direct 3D 8.0 Wrapper for OpenGL Open Sourced
by Patrik Stridvall 12 Feb '02

12 Feb '02

> Just found this on http://www.osnews.com/: > > Direct 3D 8.0 Wrapper for OpenGL Open Sourced > http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=613 > > Not sure what is the license, but maybe it could > be incorporated to wine as an alternative to the > transgaming's version. Some of the file have the following copyright: ; * Copyright © Realtech VR 2001 ; * ; * Permission to use, copy, modify, distribute and sell this software ; * and its documentation for any purpose is hereby granted without fee, ; * provided that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and ; * that both that copyright notice and this permission notice appear ; * in supporting documentation. Realtech makes no representations ; * about the suitability of this software for any purpose. ; * It is provided "as is" without express or implied warranty. But some of the files have another copyright: * Copyright (C) 1995-2001 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved. Yet some files contains no copyright notice at all. I wonder the license status of the whole thing really is. We should be very careful before including something like this. Beside it is for most parts in C++. That can of course be fixed but it would require some work.

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