There's little point in my continually asking users to add bug links to the AppDB if maintainers and/or administrators don't bother themselves.
It takes longer to create a bug report than it does to link it to the database. It really isn't that hard.
I've added hundreds over the past few weeks and this is not the first time I have said it, nor am I the first one to do so.
It's even on the Wiki. http://wiki.winehq.org/Bugs
On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 2:46 PM, Ken Sharp kennybobs@o2.co.uk wrote:
There's little point in my continually asking users to add bug links to the AppDB if maintainers and/or administrators don't bother themselves.
It takes longer to create a bug report than it does to link it to the database. It really isn't that hard.
I've added hundreds over the past few weeks and this is not the first time I have said it, nor am I the first one to do so.
It's even on the Wiki. http://wiki.winehq.org/Bugs
You'll probably want to add a subject on the forum, since it's decoupled from wine-users, and most users are on the forum now.
If we really want the links to be up to date, we should figure out a way to make them show up on bugzilla, without clicking through to a search. Otherwise, the only time someone is likely to notice a bug that hasn't been linked is if they're looking for it specifically and happened to start their search on the appdb.
On 16/08/13 19:15, Vincent Povirk wrote:
If we really want the links to be up to date, we should figure out a way to make them show up on bugzilla, without clicking through to a search. Otherwise, the only time someone is likely to notice a bug that hasn't been linked is if they're looking for it specifically and happened to start their search on the appdb.
Yep! Very true!
I believe someone managed to run a script to find the unlinked bugs. I can't remember who it was now, sadly, and I don't know if it was server-side, which would obviously be quicker.
On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 20:51:19 +0100 Ken Sharp kennybobs@o2.co.uk wrote:
I believe someone managed to run a script to find the unlinked bugs. I can't remember who it was now, sadly, and I don't know if it was server-side, which would obviously be quicker.
Dan Kegel. http://kegel.com/wine/unlinked.html
On 16/08/13 22:02, Rosanne DiMesio wrote:
Dan Kegel. http://kegel.com/wine/unlinked.html
Good find! :-)
Am 16.08.2013 23:02, schrieb Rosanne DiMesio:
On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 20:51:19 +0100 Ken Sharp kennybobs@o2.co.uk wrote:
I believe someone managed to run a script to find the unlinked bugs. I can't remember who it was now, sadly, and I don't know if it was server-side, which would obviously be quicker.
Dan Kegel. http://kegel.com/wine/unlinked.html
So this is just with no link in "Show Apps affected by this bug"? Beside it being outdated i think it's not exactly what Ken wants, we should rather have a script that goes through every App in AppDB and searches for Bugs with the App name in the Summary. That could be tricky, e.g. "StarCraft I" will rather find bugs for "StarCraft II" than a search for "StarCraft".
On Sat, 17 Aug 2013 13:07:32 +0200 André Hentschel nerv@dawncrow.de wrote:
So this is just with no link in "Show Apps affected by this bug"? Beside it being outdated i think it's not exactly what Ken wants,
I think what Ken wants is for people to add the bug links when they create the bug so we don't periodically wind up with thousands of unlinked bugs that have to be cleaned up. I also think that's not going to happen as long as bug links can't be added from Bugzilla, when you're creating the report. Not everyone has an AppDB account or wants one, and they shouldn't be obligated to create one just to file a bug. http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16284 (My guess is that's probably never going to be fixed because it involves changes to Bugzilla code.)
On 17/08/13 13:36, Rosanne DiMesio wrote:
On Sat, 17 Aug 2013 13:07:32 +0200 André Hentschel nerv@dawncrow.de wrote:
So this is just with no link in "Show Apps affected by this bug"? Beside it being outdated i think it's not exactly what Ken wants,
I can, and do, search Bugzilla for that. It is a massive PITA having to do it but a script would make it easier, however...
I think what Ken wants is for people to add the bug links when they create the bug so we don't periodically wind up with thousands of unlinked bugs that have to be cleaned up.
Spot on.
It may seem counter-productive but I agree that you shouldn't be forced to create an AppDB account, despite it not hurting in the slightest. The problem though is that most people do have both accounts, they're just too damned lazy to attach the bug link.
As a general rule the AppDB admins and the Bugzilla triage team are the same people, and it's these poor buggers that have to clean up all the mess where people could be doing it themselves.
Many a hand makes light work... Do your part... Dig for victory... etc.
On Sat, 17 Aug 2013 15:37:33 +0100 Ken Sharp kennybobs@o2.co.uk wrote:
I can, and do, search Bugzilla for that. It is a massive PITA having to do it but a script would make it easier, however...
Users can add bug links, so if someone would run an updated script and post the results we could post it on the forum and ask users to help. It worked last time.
Am 17.08.2013 13:07, schrieb André Hentschel:
Am 16.08.2013 23:02, schrieb Rosanne DiMesio:
On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 20:51:19 +0100 Ken Sharp kennybobs@o2.co.uk wrote:
I believe someone managed to run a script to find the unlinked bugs. I can't remember who it was now, sadly, and I don't know if it was server-side, which would obviously be quicker.
Dan Kegel. http://kegel.com/wine/unlinked.html
So this is just with no link in "Show Apps affected by this bug"? Beside it being outdated i think it's not exactly what Ken wants, we should rather have a script that goes through every App in AppDB and searches for Bugs with the App name in the Summary. That could be tricky, e.g. "StarCraft I" will rather find bugs for "StarCraft II" than a search for "StarCraft".
So i did just that, see attachment for source and result. In case this is usefull i'll be happy to setup a github repo for it, so we can improve it together.
On Fri, 16 Aug 2013, Rosanne DiMesio wrote:
On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 20:51:19 +0100 Ken Sharp kennybobs@o2.co.uk wrote:
I believe someone managed to run a script to find the unlinked bugs. I can't remember who it was now, sadly, and I don't know if it was server-side, which would obviously be quicker.
Dan Kegel. http://kegel.com/wine/unlinked.html
This page seems to list a lot of closed bugs. Do we want to bother linking the AppDB to those? If not it would probably be relatively easy to remove them from the list which would make finding the remaining offenders easier.
Another problem with that list is that some bugs correspond to no specific Windows application (e.g. 'Stabilize Winelib User Guide Table of Contents') and thus will never be linked from the AppDB. As a result they will remain in this 'todo' list indefinitely. It would be goo to have a way to get them removed. One possibility would be to have a button or some such on the page, but it might be better to have some kind of indication directly in Bugzilla, maybe a keyword?
In case someone would like to improve the script producing this page, is its source available somewhere?
On 18/08/13 09:56, Francois Gouget wrote:
On Fri, 16 Aug 2013, Rosanne DiMesio wrote:
On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 20:51:19 +0100 Ken Sharp kennybobs@o2.co.uk wrote:
I believe someone managed to run a script to find the unlinked bugs. I can't remember who it was now, sadly, and I don't know if it was server-side, which would obviously be quicker.
Dan Kegel. http://kegel.com/wine/unlinked.html
This page seems to list a lot of closed bugs. Do we want to bother linking the AppDB to those? If not it would probably be relatively easy to remove them from the list which would make finding the remaining offenders easier.
It's an old list.
Another problem with that list is that some bugs correspond to no specific Windows application (e.g. 'Stabilize Winelib User Guide Table of Contents') and thus will never be linked from the AppDB. As a result they will remain in this 'todo' list indefinitely. It would be goo to have a way to get them removed. One possibility would be to have a button or some such on the page, but it might be better to have some kind of indication directly in Bugzilla, maybe a keyword?
There was one: NoAppDBEntry. It was removed for some reason.
In case someone would like to improve the script producing this page, is its source available somewhere?
On Fri, 16 Aug 2013, Ken Sharp wrote: [...]
It takes longer to create a bug report than it does to link it to the database. It really isn't that hard.
But adding a link requires going and logging into a separate web site. That's really not the part of the normal flow of entering a bug.
There's little point in my continually asking users to add bug links to the AppDB if maintainers and/or administrators don't bother themselves.
[...]
I've added hundreds over the past few weeks and this is not the first time I have said it, nor am I the first one to do so.
It's even on the Wiki. http://wiki.winehq.org/Bugs
Who reads instructions on a separate Wiki page when entering bug reports? Just saying your expectations may be set a bit unrealistically high.
We have some instructions on Bugzilla's bug submission page (currently 'Please do not PASTE logs and back traces'). It may make sense to add something for the bug links either there or on the page confirming the bug was enered. It would have a much better chance of being read there than on the Wiki.
On 18 August 2013 11:16, Francois Gouget fgouget@free.fr wrote:
On Fri, 16 Aug 2013, Ken Sharp wrote: [...]
It takes longer to create a bug report than it does to link it to the database. It really isn't that hard.
But adding a link requires going and logging into a separate web site. That's really not the part of the normal flow of entering a bug.
The link should probably be setup from the bugzilla side instead of from the AppDB side. I.e., you could have a field on the bug that gets filled with AppDB application IDs. Adding such a field and querying it from the AppDB shouldn't be particularly hard, but what may be harder is looking up the application IDs in a convenient way when entering the bug, and perhaps displaying them in a nice way when viewing the bug.
On 18/08/13 10:16, Francois Gouget wrote:
On Fri, 16 Aug 2013, Ken Sharp wrote: [...]
It takes longer to create a bug report than it does to link it to the database. It really isn't that hard.
But adding a link requires going and logging into a separate web site. That's really not the part of the normal flow of entering a bug.
It is for me and everyone else who actually does it. It's nothing more than your choice not to. There's no normal flow to entering a bug.
I've already said that it takes seconds.
There's little point in my continually asking users to add bug links to the AppDB if maintainers and/or administrators don't bother themselves.
[...]
I've added hundreds over the past few weeks and this is not the first time I have said it, nor am I the first one to do so.
It's even on the Wiki. http://wiki.winehq.org/Bugs
Who reads instructions on a separate Wiki page when entering bug reports? Just saying your expectations may be set a bit unrealistically high.
Really? We may as well delete all the Wiki pages then.
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/ReportingBugs http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_file_a_bug_report https://wiki.videolan.org/Report_bugs/ http://www.mingw.org/Reporting_Bugs
The triage team link to the Wiki with almost every response for more information.
We have some instructions on Bugzilla's bug submission page (currently 'Please do not PASTE logs and back traces'). It may make sense to add something for the bug links either there or on the page confirming the bug was enered. It would have a much better chance of being read there than on the Wiki.
Just add the link to the Wiki. We've already done that on the AppDB. The Wiki can be easily edited. Bugzilla cannot.
On Sun, 18 Aug 2013, Ken Sharp wrote: [...]
We have some instructions on Bugzilla's bug submission page (currently 'Please do not PASTE logs and back traces'). It may make sense to add something for the bug links either there or on the page confirming the bug was enered. It would have a much better chance of being read there than on the Wiki.
Just add the link to the Wiki.
It's there already. Since you don't seem to know that it means you've either never entered a Wine bug (but you made claims that seem to indicate the contrary), or that you yourself don't read the instructions on how to enter a bug. So why do you expect others to?
So I stand by my assessement that you have unrealistically high expectations of others, and that going to a separate website is not part of the normal workflow for entering a bug.
I'll also add that I've been entering Wine bugs for about as long as is possible and I was not aware of the requirement to add the bugs in the AppDB.
Note that I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to have the AppDB and Bugzilla nicely cross-referenced or that we shouldn't strive for it. What I'm saying is: * As things stand you cannot act all surprised that it's not the case. * Putting all the blame on the bug reporters like you seem to be doing is not how you will improve the situation.
On 18/08/13 17:35, Francois Gouget wrote:
On Sun, 18 Aug 2013, Ken Sharp wrote: [...]
We have some instructions on Bugzilla's bug submission page (currently 'Please do not PASTE logs and back traces'). It may make sense to add something for the bug links either there or on the page confirming the bug was enered. It would have a much better chance of being read there than on the Wiki.
Just add the link to the Wiki.
It's there already. Since you don't seem to know that it means you've either never entered a Wine bug (but you made claims that seem to indicate the contrary), or that you yourself don't read the instructions on how to enter a bug. So why do you expect others to?
I know it's already there. Given I have just update a load of Wiki links on how to correctly do all of this, who are you trying to blame for not read this stuff?
So I stand by my assessement that you have unrealistically high expectations of others,
You aim very low.
and that going to a separate website is not part of the normal workflow for entering a bug.
For you. Other users manage it. It takes them seconds.
I'll also add that I've been entering Wine bugs for about as long as is possible and I was not aware of the requirement to add the bugs in the AppDB.
You have been paying very little attention then as it has been brought up a number of times. It is also IN THE WIKI!
Note that I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to have the AppDB and Bugzilla nicely cross-referenced or that we shouldn't strive for it. What I'm saying is:
- As things stand you cannot act all surprised that it's not the case.
- Putting all the blame on the bug reporters like you seem to be doing is not how you will improve the situation.
So who is to blame? Is it your fault? It's not mine. Perhaps you are blaming Codeweavers? Who is to blame for the inaction of others if it not the people themselves?
On Sun, 18 Aug 2013, Ken Sharp wrote: [...]
So who is to blame? Is it your fault? It's not mine.
No, it is not yours. It cannot possibly be yours.
Perhaps you are blaming Codeweavers?
Uh? How did they get brought into this. Just stop trolling already!
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 6:00 PM, Ken Sharp kennybobs@o2.co.uk wrote:
On 18/08/13 17:35, Francois Gouget wrote:
On Sun, 18 Aug 2013, Ken Sharp wrote: [...]
We have some instructions on Bugzilla's bug submission page (currently
'Please do not PASTE logs and back traces'). It may make sense to add something for the bug links either there or on the page confirming the bug was enered. It would have a much better chance of being read there than on the Wiki.
Just add the link to the Wiki.
It's there already. Since you don't seem to know that it means you've either never entered a Wine bug (but you made claims that seem to indicate the contrary), or that you yourself don't read the instructions on how to enter a bug. So why do you expect others to?
I know it's already there. Given I have just update a load of Wiki links on how to correctly do all of this, who are you trying to blame for not read this stuff?
So I stand by my assessement that you have unrealistically high expectations of others,
You aim very low.
Ken, wishful thinking will not get people to enter this sort of data. The AppDB/Bugzilla interaction is bad enough for users and developers familiar with Wine, I can't tell you how awful it is for users who just want to file a couple of bugs for their favourite apps (that's if they're even familiar with the concept of an issue tracker in the first place). You have to have two accounts. That alone is a showstopper for most people. And then you have to file related information on the two separate sites. Oh, and that's if you at all figure out the correct version of the software to add the bug link to.
Francois is right; you have unrealistically high expectations. And this isn't about "aiming", it's about having the basic grounds for users to even think about adding the bug links.
If you want this, you have to add an optional field in the bug report page "Applications affected". With autocomplete on the names. And get rid of the duplication for bug links between versions. And provide common accounts for *.winehq.org.
and that going to a separate website is not part
of the normal workflow for entering a bug.
For you. Other users manage it. It takes them seconds.
I'll also add that I've been entering Wine bugs for about as long as is possible and I was not aware of the requirement to add the bugs in the AppDB.
You have been paying very little attention then as it has been brought up a number of times. It is also IN THE WIKI!
Note that I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to have the AppDB and Bugzilla nicely cross-referenced or that we shouldn't strive for it. What I'm saying is:
- As things stand you cannot act all surprised that it's not the case.
- Putting all the blame on the bug reporters like you seem to be doing is not how you will improve the situation.
So who is to blame? Is it your fault? It's not mine. Perhaps you are blaming Codeweavers? Who is to blame for the inaction of others if it not the people themselves?
On Sun, 18 Aug 2013 11:16:27 +0200 (CEST) Francois Gouget fgouget@free.fr wrote:
We have some instructions on Bugzilla's bug submission page (currently 'Please do not PASTE logs and back traces'). It may make sense to add something for the bug links either there or on the page confirming the bug was enered. It would have a much better chance of being read there than on the Wiki.
+1
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André Hentschel -
Francois Gouget -
Frédéric Delanoy -
Henri Verbeet -
Jerome Leclanche -
Ken Sharp -
Rosanne DiMesio -
Vincent Povirk