December 2005 - Wine-Devel - list.winehq.org

Re: [lostwages] Remove winetools from download page

by Joseph Garvin

James Hawkins wrote: >encourage peer review. We value bug reports, comments, suggestions, >and criticisms, whether good or bad, so that we can make wine a better >application. Your comments infer that the developers aren't >interested in making wine easier for the end user, or that we are too >'hardcore' to realize that wine may be hard to use. The latter is >possible, but the former is completely untrue. We take usability >reports very seriously, and increasing usability is a top priority. > > I do think that often developers are so technical minded that things that seem obvious to them are definitely not obvious to the average user. I peek at the KDE usability mailing list sometimes, a project more obviously focused on usability, and they can be just as terrible about it :) I didn't mean to rag on the wine developers, it's just that up to this point I don't think usability is an area of wine that has had a lot of work done on it. I'm not saying you wouldn't respond to usability complaints, but I think it should be apparent that in its current state wine would suffer from a low usability score. >The only problem is that we don't get those types of reports as often >as we should. One reason why we don't get these reports is because >users have winetools to make wine easier. They don't run wine >directly, configure wine with winecfg, and stumble over any usability >issues. That is why this issue began in the first place. > > This is true to some extent but I don't think wine is to the point yet where you could get meaningful usability reports from users. I think wine developers can quite easily on their own apply the "does the user have to open a terminal to use and configure wine" litmus test. To do usability testing you have to have an interface that the usability of can be tested. Wine has winecfg, but the average user can't even get to that interface to test it. >Speaking specifically to you Joseph, I've checked through the >wine-devel and wine-users mailing list archives for reports of >usability issues from you, but this is the first one. The >constructive thing to do would be to politely report your problems on >the wine-devel list, or even file bug reports for them. > > Well I hadn't really thought a lot about wine usability until this came up on the list =) I think I will. >On at least KDE and Gnome, alt-f2 will bring up a run dialog, type > > >winecfg and press enter. Even if winecfg was only usable from the >command line, that doesn't count against usability. If that were the >case, many well-known command line applications would be considered to >have poor usability. > > Many command line applications /do/ suffer from poor usability. I would never expect the average user to make use of them. Each command has its own fairly arbitrary single letter shorthands for a variety of switches, with no consistency between command line apps. Even to have a command go recursively through a directory isn't consistent, sometimes it's -r other times -R. I don't consider the command line to be usable by the average user at all. Having to type "man command" and read through several pages of documentation before being able to perform simple actions doesn't qualify as intuitive. That said, the command line is very useful and powerful -- for power users. > > >>and you can launch a wine application that asks the user what windows >>app they would like to run or make shortcut to so they don't have to use >>terminal there either, /then/ maybe there can be some usability discussion. >> >> > >winefile > > I don't think winefile does what I described. > > >>And then maybe it would be appropriate to remove winetools. >> >> >> > >Please re-read the posts. No one is advocating removing winetools, >only the link to the winetool's download from winehq.org. > > Err, that's what I meant. I was unclear, sorry. Again, I don't mean to insult anyone. I think wine is progressing at a breakneck pace and that it's an awesome piece of software. But I think removing winetools, a utility that helps to compensate for a current lack of wine usability, maybe unwise until wine can adequately replace it. I would at least set this criteria: -.Desktop files for winecfg in all binary packages Because without that I don't think removing winetools will cause an increase in usability feedback.

Dec. 24, 2005

Accidentally fixed a bug :-)

by Dan Kegel

I've been helping a couple small ISVs test their apps and file bugs lately. To my surprise, one of the bugs (ChooseColor() not responding to keystrokes, http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4125) was easy enough to fix without any real knowledge of the code, so I posted a patch that seems to fix it (http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-patches/2005-December/023048.html) It was a pleasant surprise to run into something so easy to fix. Guess I should try it more often! - Dan -- Wine for Windows ISVs: http://kegel.com/wine/isv

Dec. 24, 2005

Re: [OLE] Storage

by Sven Paschukat

Ulrich Czekalla schrieb: > ChangeLog: > Ulrich Czekalla <ulrich(a)codeweavers.com> > Return error instead of asserting if file is corrupt This patch seems to hang installation of Internet Explorer. If I assign a native ole32.dll to ie6wzd.exe or use the builtin ole32 before this submit then it's running. The freeze happens when completing the component selection dialog. Sven

Dec. 23, 2005

Re: Alexandre Julliard : ntdll: More compatible exception information for protection faults.

by Saulius Krasuckas

* On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Alexandre Julliard wrote: > * Paul Vriens <Paul.Vriens(a)xs4all.nl> writes: > > > > this latest addition to the tests throws an exception on win98. > > Screenshot attached. > > Probably Alexandre's area, as he wrote the test. > > Yes, but I don't have win98 here. Could you please try to find out which > of the various exception tests causes that? I am sorry for ignoring this conversation and sending separate question about the same issue. If that's of some interest, here is the patch that I got rid of BSoDs on WinME with: --- dlls/ntdll/tests/exception.c 2005-12-17 11:38:41.000000000 +0000 +++ /mnt/vcd2/wine/dlls/ntdll/tests/exception.c 2005-12-23 09:45:56.000000000 +0000 @@ -51,16 +51,41 @@ static const struct exception } exceptions[] = { /* test some privileged instructions */ +#if 0 // following two elements makes test stall on WinME { { 0x6c, 0xc3 }, /* insb (%dx); ret */ 0, 1, STATUS_PRIVILEGED_INSTRUCTION, 0 }, { { 0x6d, 0xc3 }, /* insl (%dx); ret */ 0, 1, STATUS_PRIVILEGED_INSTRUCTION, 0 }, +#endif +#if 0 // following two elements gives MSVCRTD dialog box saying: + /* + Debug Error! + + Program: + ...\WIN32_WINE_HEADERS\NTDLL_TEST.EXE + Modue: + File: i386\chkesp.c + Line: 42 + + The value of ESP was not properly saved across a function call. This is usually a result of + calling a function with one calling convention with a function pointer declared + with a different calling convention. + + (Press Retry to debug the application) + + Abort Retry Ignore + */ { { 0x6e, 0xc3 }, /* outsb (%dx); ret */ 0, 1, STATUS_PRIVILEGED_INSTRUCTION, 0 }, { { 0x6f, 0xc3 }, /* outsl (%dx); ret */ 0, 1, STATUS_PRIVILEGED_INSTRUCTION, 0 }, +#endif +#if 0 // BSoD: + // Windows protection error. You need to restart your computer. + // System halted. { { 0xe4, 0x11, 0xc3 }, /* inb $0x11,%al; ret */ 0, 2, STATUS_PRIVILEGED_INSTRUCTION, 0 }, +#endif { { 0xe5, 0x11, 0xc3 }, /* inl $0x11,%eax; ret */ 0, 2, STATUS_PRIVILEGED_INSTRUCTION, 0 }, { { 0xe6, 0x11, 0xc3 }, /* outb %al,$0x11; ret */ @@ -109,8 +134,10 @@ static const struct exception 0, 15, STATUS_PRIVILEGED_INSTRUCTION, 0 }, /* test invalid interrupt */ +#if 0 // BSoD: exception 0D in VMM { { 0xcd, 0xff, 0xc3 }, /* int $0xff; ret */ 0, 2, STATUS_ACCESS_VIOLATION, 2, { 0, 0xffffffff } }, +#endif /* test moves to/from Crx */ { { 0x0f, 0x20, 0xc0, 0xc3 }, /* movl %cr0,%eax; ret */

Dec. 23, 2005

Regression in MSI

by Sergei Rozhkov

I think, I found a regression in msi (0.9.3 -> 0.9.4). When I launch Syberia's setup.exe there was 87: "fixme:ole:ITypeInfo_fnRelease destroy child objects", displayed InstallShield Wizard with empty progress bar and stuck. Than I tryed morrowind - again 87: "fixme:ole:ITypeInfo_fnRelease destroy child objects", displayed InstallShield Wizard with two filled sells in progress bar and stuck with that: err:ole:marshal_object object doesn't expose interface {be6115a1-7de5-48dc-ad2a-25060e00fce2}, failing with error 0x80004002 err:ole:ClientIdentity_QueryMultipleInterfaces IRemUnknown_RemQueryInterface failed with error 0x80004002 err:ole:marshal_object object doesn't expose interface {be6115a1-7de5-48dc-ad2a-25060e00fce2}, failing with error 0x80004002 err:ole:ClientIdentity_QueryMultipleInterfaces IRemUnknown_RemQueryInterface failed with error 0x80004002 Than I tryed Evil Islands - exactly the same. All this apps installed in previous versions. --- Sorry For My English and if I posted in wrong place || wrong time, or if I'm wrong. Merry Christmas!

Dec. 23, 2005

Re: [lostwages] Remove winetools from download page

by Chris Morgan

On 12/23/05, wino(a)piments.com <wino(a)piments.com> wrote: > On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:42:14 +0100, Chris Morgan <chmorgan(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > I'm going to have to side with Vitaliy on this one. I've helped > > dozens of users in #winehq that have had problems with wine due to > > winetools since we made the changes to remove the .config file. > > Apparently winetools has been upgraded to work with 0.9x versions of > > wine, this is great news although I don't think we want to promote > > winetools to users if the authors aren't going to help out in #winehq > > and provide better overall support. > > > > Chris > > > > > > Fair point Chris but didnt you have to help dozens of NON winetools users > due that change as well? > I did have to explain to a lot of users where the .config went and that they need to use winecfg. This was quite a bit easier than trying to figure out if winetools had messed up their configuration. If the winetools guys want to provide support in #winehq and rapid releases to fix issues then I'm all for keeping the link on the downloads page. Otherwise I'd rather not burden the people in #winehq with many users that require support for winetools issues. Another aspect is the large number of users that come into #winehq asking why app 'X' doesn't work under wine after winetools said it would. We are better off setting expectations at a level we know we can meet and not adding a burden to those in #winehq that are trying to provide some kind of user support. Chris

Dec. 23, 2005

Re: [lostwages] Remove winetools from download page

by Vitaliy Margolen

Friday, December 23, 2005, 11:36:16 AM, wino(a)piments.com wrote: > I suppose everyone needs to feel important somewhere - some more than > others. Before we get personal, and start discussing who did what, please stop by on #winehq. Then well'll talk.

Dec. 23, 2005

Re: [lostwages] Remove winetools from download page

by wino＠piments.com

On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 18:24:56 +0100, Vitaliy Margolen <wine-devel(a)kievinfo.com> wrote: > There were case in US when family of someone killed with such a tool sued > manufacturer if said tool. Yeah , and someone put thier poddle in the microwave and sued. Take that sort of judgement too seriously and you daren't step out of bed. > So pls don't start this BS about winetools are good, they > help users but use them on your own risk agreeing that you comply with > all licenses. I dont ever recall saying winetools was good, but I think choice is. > Authors of winetools know well and good that majority of it's users do > not have valid win98 licence. Do they? How? Do wine devs "know that the majority" of thier users dont even have a licence for Office? Be careful you are not constructing a legal case to shut down wine! I would have thought with the ammount of decommisioned win98 installations in the world anyone who even vaguely wanted a licence could get one for $2. I have a couple on the shelf and I dont even have a win98 box. So I can legally use winetools or sidenet to install dcom98 or whatever. Sticking to the technical critisisms of winetools would be wiser and fairer. >> If you have user problems with using Wine, please, don't hesitate, and >> _list_ them here. Well that's the biggest joke after the way you shot me down in flames last time you _misinterpreted_ one of my posts here as a "users cry for help". Talk about bullshit . Maybe that's just your inflamatory style of writing. >> User is too of abstract word, talk about yourself first. Well I'm not talking about myself , I have enough experience to tackle a lot of the debugging needed. What I see around me in my personal contacts is a lot of real people , non-geek users (for want of a better term) who are at a complete loss without something like winetools/sidenet to get them running. >> Last time I've checked this _is_ the place to discuss such a topic. "No. I'm still insisting on removing winetools from the download page." That's discussion? Maybe you just dont choose your words well and give the wrong impression. Of course winetools is not _real_ quality software like the patches you write so has no right whatsoever to be seen anywhere near your work because it may get some undue reflected glory. And anyone who has not written patches for wine is talking BS and doesn't count either. I can see the userbase shrinking as I write. I suppose everyone needs to feel important somewhere - some more than others.

Dec. 23, 2005

Re: continuosly calling the function from winelib failing - stack overflow

by Alex Villacís Lasso

Ananth M wrote: >Hi > I am able to successfully convert the windows dll into .so file and I >am able to call the functions exported by dll from the winelib application. > But if I call those functions from winelib application continuously for >1000 times , in a loop, then wine is crashing with the following error > >err:seh:setup_exception stack overflow 28 bytes in thread 0025 > > Then I tried calling the stub function itself in the loop (commented >the code in stub function such that , it wont call the dll function ) > > Still I am getting the same error. > > Can any one faced this problem ? > >Can any one help on the same > > It seems that there is a mismatch between the stub's and the caller's idea of the stack usage. This mismatch accumulates over the loop until the stack overflows (or underflows). From your symptoms, the prime suspect would be a stdcall/cdecl mismatch, but more information is needed. Could you please post the declaration and the definition of your stub, and an example of how the caller is calling such function? Alex Villacís Lasso

Dec. 23, 2005

Re: [lostwages] Remove winetools from download page

by Vitaliy Margolen

Friday, December 23, 2005, 10:03:54 AM, wino(a)piments.com wrote: > On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:33:05 +0100, Vitaliy Margolen > <wine-devel(a)kievinfo.com> wrote: >> I'm still insisting...........and in most cases against the law. > Everyone is responsible for thier own actions. Someone who makes a hammer > is not responsible for a murder comitted with it. There were case in US when family of someone killed with such a tool sued manufacturer if said tool. > Be a bit careful of the ingenuous arguements you use, they could backfire > on you and the wine project as a whole. That's why we have to be _really careful_ what we "officially" recommend to users. Look at what happened to original Napster. Judge didn't care what their intentions were. But he did looked at what it was _meant_ to be used for. So pls don't start this BS about winetools are good, they help users but use them on your own risk agreeing that you comply with all licenses. Authors of winetools know well and good that majority of it's users do not have valid win98 licence. > In your post about the download page you refer 3 times in one sentence to > "wine development" and not once to "user". Correct. Winetools is made by developer(s) and not users. If it's made by users, then it has no reason whatsoever to be listed on the same page with _developed_ programs. > That is the crux of this discussion . Is wine dev an end in itself , an > intellectual challenge , or does one of the developement goals include the > user? No! It only includes _me_ as a developer, and other people who _asked_ "could it be done this way to make it better for me?". This _is_ open source. You don't like it - you don't use it or fix it for your liking. If you have user problems with using Wine, please, don't hesitate, and _list_ them here. User is too of abstract word, talk about yourself first. Or ask those "users" to tell us about _what_ do they need from wine. > You may not think so but maybe you should check with others before > insisting too hard. Last time I've checked this _is_ the place to discuss such a topic. Vitaliy

Dec. 23, 2005