February 2009 - Wine-Devel - list.winehq.org

Re: appdb issue: can't search for apps platinum on 1.0.x!

by Alexandre Julliard

Ben Klein <shacklein(a)gmail.com> writes: > I don't see a 1.0.2 being developed though. I'm sure there are still a > lot of bugs that could be fixed in 1.0.1 - correct me if I'm wrong > here. I don't see a lot of bugs that could be fixed by changes small enough to go into the stable branch. If you do, please build a list and if there are enough of them we can certainly do a 1.0.2. > But I based my statement on the fact that many users on #winehq > have come in with a problem in 1.0.1, and upgrading to the latest > available development version fixes their problem. Sure, if 1.0.1 doesn't work, then trying the tip is a good idea, but that doesn't mean that everybody should do that. There are regressions in the tip, and there's no reason to push users to upgrade unless they clearly have trouble with 1.0.1. -- Alexandre Julliard julliard(a)winehq.org

Feb. 27, 2009

Re: appdb issue: can't search for apps platinum on 1.0.x!

by Remco

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Ben Klein <shacklein(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Except that the first package would be technically outside of the > repository, and would have the same version as the one in the > repository. This COULD make the package manager think there's an > update that needs to be downloaded when it doesn't. > No, it's exactly the same package. The installer of every .deb package just has an additional file "winehq.list" with the following contents: deb http://wine.budgetdedicated.com/apt intrepid main Which must be installed into /etc/apt/sources.list.d/. Also, the scripting capabilities of .deb packages should make it possible to add the authentication key. The same goes for .rpm and their respective updating mechanism. It's like the packages sanitize their environment. Remco

Feb. 27, 2009

Re: appdb issue: can't search for apps platinum on 1.0.x!

by Ben Klein

2009/2/28 Remco <remco47(a)gmail.com>: > On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 11:06 PM, Dan Kegel <dank(a)kegel.com> wrote: >> In fact, it's common practice for repos like rpmfusion.org to >> have a tiny package that just adds themselves to your software >> sources. (See http://rpmfusion.org/Configuration ) >> Scripts are right out, though. It has to be a package, >> because you can't run a script with a single mouse click. > > The WineHQ-provided .deb and .rpm packages themselves could add the > WineHQ repo as part of their installation routine. There is no need > for a tiny separate package. > > That would result in the simplest installation scenario imaginable: > > * Click here > * Enter password > > After that, Wine will have been installed, and updates will start coming in. Except that the first package would be technically outside of the repository, and would have the same version as the one in the repository. This COULD make the package manager think there's an update that needs to be downloaded when it doesn't.

Feb. 27, 2009

Re: appdb issue: can't search for apps platinum on 1.0.x!

by Remco

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 11:06 PM, Dan Kegel <dank(a)kegel.com> wrote: > In fact, it's common practice for repos like rpmfusion.org to > have a tiny package that just adds themselves to your software > sources. (See http://rpmfusion.org/Configuration ) > Scripts are right out, though. It has to be a package, > because you can't run a script with a single mouse click. The WineHQ-provided .deb and .rpm packages themselves could add the WineHQ repo as part of their installation routine. There is no need for a tiny separate package. That would result in the simplest installation scenario imaginable: * Click here * Enter password After that, Wine will have been installed, and updates will start coming in. Remco

Feb. 27, 2009

Re: appdb issue: can't search for apps platinum on 1.0.x!

by Ben Klein

2009/2/28 Alexandre Julliard <julliard(a)winehq.org>: > Ben Klein <shacklein(a)gmail.com> writes: > >> Maybe someone should tell them that 1.0.1 is "broken" compared to >> latest development release. This isn't untrue - 1.1.15 has better >> success with a lot of apps. >> >> Basically, someone should tell them that Wine's "stable" branch is >> just a code freeze, and has nothing to do with crash-resistant >> stability. > > That's not true, we spent a lot of time fixing regressions for 1.0, and > it's clearly higher quality than many of the development snapshots. Of > course some apps may work better in 1.1.15, but some are broken too. > > Saying 1.0.1 is too broken to be supported is silly, it was working just > fine 6 months ago, and it is still working fine for many apps. I don't see a 1.0.2 being developed though. I'm sure there are still a lot of bugs that could be fixed in 1.0.1 - correct me if I'm wrong here. But I based my statement on the fact that many users on #winehq have come in with a problem in 1.0.1, and upgrading to the latest available development version fixes their problem.

Feb. 27, 2009

Re: appdb issue: can't search for apps platinum on 1.0.x!

by Ben Klein

2009/2/28 Dan Kegel <dank(a)kegel.com>: >>> Another way around this, as Scott Ritchie pointed out, is >>> to arrange for what's in Ubuntu to be less stale. However, >>> there are only two ways to do that: either do a stable >>> release more often (which is difficult, and which Alexandre >>> doesn't seem inclined to do), or get Ubuntu to accept an >>> unstable snapshot into their stable repository (which I think >>> they are not inclined to do). >> >> Maybe someone should tell them that 1.0.1 is "broken" compared to >> latest development release. This isn't untrue - 1.1.15 has better >> success with a lot of apps. > > Their reply is probably "well, then do another stable release. > Our policy is that we prefer to bundle only stable releases." We should at least try! From what I've seen, Ubuntu like bleeding-edge stuff that likes to break other things, like pulseaudio. Maybe their problem is with the 2-week release cycle. How many releases would there be between Ubuntu releases? 6 months, 13 releases of Wine. Still, isn't it worth contacting the Ubuntu Wine package maintainer to get their viewpoint? >>> Yet another way to show that we care about Ubuntu >>> users would be to make it drop-dead simple for >>> the average user to add the Wine repository and get >>> the latest wine. The current download instructions are >>> really too complicated. We need instructions that are >>> no more complicated than >>> >>> First: >>> Click *here* to add WineHQ's repository >>> >>> Then: >>> Do Applications / 'Add / Remove', and choose Wine >> >> The instructions were like this at one point: download this script, >> run it, go to Add/Remove. Again, I think it's unproductive to hide >> information from the users. > > And it's even more unproductive if your instructions are so > long that users can't or won't follow them. > > I'm trying to introduce rank beginners to Wine, and > anything beyond "Click Add/Remove, then choose Wine" > is stretching it. I can see their eyes glaze over. I think you're assuming too much of your target audience, but that's just me. >> At least with the current instructions >> they can see *exactly* what's going on, and they don't have to worry >> about manual editing or the user-unfriendly command-line ... > > The current instructions tell them to manually edit > their software sources. It's too much typing for them. If you can present a better way of adding Scott's repository into their list, then please do. A little copy-and-paste won't hurt them. >> I'd also think the average user might be sceptical of an all-in-one >> script that changes the configuration of their system. "Why is this >> thing asking for my password? What is it doing? Can I really trust >> it?" etc. etc. > > In fact, it's common practice for repos like rpmfusion.org to > have a tiny package that just adds themselves to your software > sources. (See http://rpmfusion.org/Configuration ) > Scripts are right out, though. It has to be a package, > because you can't run a script with a single mouse click. Maybe this is not a bad idea: provide a package with the correctly configured /etc/apt/sources.list.d/foobar that also registers the GPG key with apt. It's certainly possible! The only problem would be for distro upgrades (say between Ubuntu 8.10 and 9.04) where the name of the repository changes. But with good instructions, this should be trivial. > I think it's important for us to focus on usability of installation. > Thinking like developers has got us a long ways; now we also > have to think like users. Unfortunately, new users of Linux systems, particularly Debian-based distros, are often confused by package management in general. My brother, who really is a whiz with Windows systems, couldn't work out how to get new software into Ubuntu. He thought that because individual developers didn't provide binary packages, he had to compile everything. I tried to teach him how to use synaptic, and he said "This is stupid. It should be like MacOSX where you just download a package and it's installed." I'm sure I don't need to go into the benefits of centralised package management for Linux-like systems on this thread ... I think that properly educating new users is more valuable than telling them "click on this magic link that does it for you".

Feb. 27, 2009

Re: appdb issue: can't search for apps platinum on 1.0.x!

by Alexandre Julliard

Ben Klein <shacklein(a)gmail.com> writes: > Maybe someone should tell them that 1.0.1 is "broken" compared to > latest development release. This isn't untrue - 1.1.15 has better > success with a lot of apps. > > Basically, someone should tell them that Wine's "stable" branch is > just a code freeze, and has nothing to do with crash-resistant > stability. That's not true, we spent a lot of time fixing regressions for 1.0, and it's clearly higher quality than many of the development snapshots. Of course some apps may work better in 1.1.15, but some are broken too. Saying 1.0.1 is too broken to be supported is silly, it was working just fine 6 months ago, and it is still working fine for many apps. -- Alexandre Julliard julliard(a)winehq.org

Feb. 27, 2009

Re: appdb issue: can't search for apps platinum on 1.0.x!

by Dan Kegel

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Ben Klein <shacklein(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> That's a fine attitude from the developer's point of view, >> but that means that Wine *doesn't care* about Ubuntu >> users who expect to be able to use Wine by doing >> "add/remove" in the system menu. >> >> And I think we do care. > > No more than any other distro, to be honest. What I meant was, I think we do care about users of distros that are shipping wine-1.0. I don't know how many do, but I suspect it's not just Ubuntu. >> Another way around this, as Scott Ritchie pointed out, is >> to arrange for what's in Ubuntu to be less stale. However, >> there are only two ways to do that: either do a stable >> release more often (which is difficult, and which Alexandre >> doesn't seem inclined to do), or get Ubuntu to accept an >> unstable snapshot into their stable repository (which I think >> they are not inclined to do). > > Maybe someone should tell them that 1.0.1 is "broken" compared to > latest development release. This isn't untrue - 1.1.15 has better > success with a lot of apps. Their reply is probably "well, then do another stable release. Our policy is that we prefer to bundle only stable releases." >> Yet another way to show that we care about Ubuntu >> users would be to make it drop-dead simple for >> the average user to add the Wine repository and get >> the latest wine. The current download instructions are >> really too complicated. We need instructions that are >> no more complicated than >> >> First: >> Click *here* to add WineHQ's repository >> >> Then: >> Do Applications / 'Add / Remove', and choose Wine > > The instructions were like this at one point: download this script, > run it, go to Add/Remove. Again, I think it's unproductive to hide > information from the users. And it's even more unproductive if your instructions are so long that users can't or won't follow them. I'm trying to introduce rank beginners to Wine, and anything beyond "Click Add/Remove, then choose Wine" is stretching it. I can see their eyes glaze over. > At least with the current instructions > they can see *exactly* what's going on, and they don't have to worry > about manual editing or the user-unfriendly command-line ... The current instructions tell them to manually edit their software sources. It's too much typing for them. > I'd also think the average user might be sceptical of an all-in-one > script that changes the configuration of their system. "Why is this > thing asking for my password? What is it doing? Can I really trust > it?" etc. etc. In fact, it's common practice for repos like rpmfusion.org to have a tiny package that just adds themselves to your software sources. (See http://rpmfusion.org/Configuration ) Scripts are right out, though. It has to be a package, because you can't run a script with a single mouse click. I think it's important for us to focus on usability of installation. Thinking like developers has got us a long ways; now we also have to think like users. - Dan

Feb. 27, 2009

Re: appdb issue: can't search for apps platinum on 1.0.x!

by Branan Riley

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Ben Klein <shacklein(a)gmail.com> wrote: > 2009/2/28 Dan Kegel <dank(a)kegel.com>: > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Ben Klein <shacklein(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> 2009/2/26 Dan Kegel <dank(a)kegel.com>: > >>> Our currently released version is 1.0, but the appdb's > >>> browse feature acts as if that version no longer exists. > >>> This will seriously confuse newcomers who are using > >>> the 1.0.1 version (e.g. anybody who installs a fresh > >>> copy of Ubuntu!). > >> > >> Someone mentioned on another thread (or possibly on IRC, I don't > >> recall) that 1.0-series is too old to be of concern to us. We don't > >> want test data for 1.0.x; we don't want bug reports for 1.0.x unless > >> they're still apparent in the development version. Development has > >> stopped on 1.0.x. > > > > That's a fine attitude from the developer's point of view, > > but that means that Wine *doesn't care* about Ubuntu > > users who expect to be able to use Wine by doing > > "add/remove" in the system menu. > > > > And I think we do care. > > No more than any other distro, to be honest. > > > Another way around this, as Scott Ritchie pointed out, is > > to arrange for what's in Ubuntu to be less stale. However, > > there are only two ways to do that: either do a stable > > release more often (which is difficult, and which Alexandre > > doesn't seem inclined to do), or get Ubuntu to accept an > > unstable snapshot into their stable repository (which I think > > they are not inclined to do). > > Maybe someone should tell them that 1.0.1 is "broken" compared to > latest development release. This isn't untrue - 1.1.15 has better > success with a lot of apps. > > Basically, someone should tell them that Wine's "stable" branch is > just a code freeze, and has nothing to do with crash-resistant > stability. > > > Yet another way to show that we care about Ubuntu > > users would be to make it drop-dead simple for > > the average user to add the Wine repository and get > > the latest wine. The current download instructions are > > really too complicated. We need instructions that are > > no more complicated than > > > > First: > > Click *here* to add WineHQ's repository > > > > Then: > > Do Applications / 'Add / Remove', and choose Wine > > The instructions were like this at one point: download this script, > run it, go to Add/Remove. Again, I think it's unproductive to hide > information from the users. At least with the current instructions > they can see *exactly* what's going on, and they don't have to worry > about manual editing or the user-unfriendly command-line ... > > I'd also think the average user might be sceptical of an all-in-one > script that changes the configuration of their system. "Why is this > thing asking for my password? What is it doing? Can I really trust > it?" etc. etc. Anyone coming from Vista would be used to UAC for program installs...

Feb. 27, 2009

Re: appdb issue: can't search for apps platinum on 1.0.x!

by Ben Klein

2009/2/28 Dan Kegel <dank(a)kegel.com>: > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Ben Klein <shacklein(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> 2009/2/26 Dan Kegel <dank(a)kegel.com>: >>> Our currently released version is 1.0, but the appdb's >>> browse feature acts as if that version no longer exists. >>> This will seriously confuse newcomers who are using >>> the 1.0.1 version (e.g. anybody who installs a fresh >>> copy of Ubuntu!). >> >> Someone mentioned on another thread (or possibly on IRC, I don't >> recall) that 1.0-series is too old to be of concern to us. We don't >> want test data for 1.0.x; we don't want bug reports for 1.0.x unless >> they're still apparent in the development version. Development has >> stopped on 1.0.x. > > That's a fine attitude from the developer's point of view, > but that means that Wine *doesn't care* about Ubuntu > users who expect to be able to use Wine by doing > "add/remove" in the system menu. > > And I think we do care. No more than any other distro, to be honest. > Another way around this, as Scott Ritchie pointed out, is > to arrange for what's in Ubuntu to be less stale. However, > there are only two ways to do that: either do a stable > release more often (which is difficult, and which Alexandre > doesn't seem inclined to do), or get Ubuntu to accept an > unstable snapshot into their stable repository (which I think > they are not inclined to do). Maybe someone should tell them that 1.0.1 is "broken" compared to latest development release. This isn't untrue - 1.1.15 has better success with a lot of apps. Basically, someone should tell them that Wine's "stable" branch is just a code freeze, and has nothing to do with crash-resistant stability. > Yet another way to show that we care about Ubuntu > users would be to make it drop-dead simple for > the average user to add the Wine repository and get > the latest wine. The current download instructions are > really too complicated. We need instructions that are > no more complicated than > > First: > Click *here* to add WineHQ's repository > > Then: > Do Applications / 'Add / Remove', and choose Wine The instructions were like this at one point: download this script, run it, go to Add/Remove. Again, I think it's unproductive to hide information from the users. At least with the current instructions they can see *exactly* what's going on, and they don't have to worry about manual editing or the user-unfriendly command-line ... I'd also think the average user might be sceptical of an all-in-one script that changes the configuration of their system. "Why is this thing asking for my password? What is it doing? Can I really trust it?" etc. etc. > That would compensate for the packages in Ubuntu's repo being stale. > - Dan

Feb. 27, 2009